Where Everybody Knows You're Numb

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

RE: "STONEWALL IT!"

milo · Veteran Member

neither one of them answered a dammed question!
JM said "my friend" to many times
BO said uuuuuhhhhhhh to damned many times, he isn't so hot without a script.

and I still feel no matter which direction we go it is "lol we screwed you all, again".

Kerry was a bad choice, BO is just the way wrong choice. we are soooooooo screwed.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Watching last night's debate, I kept wondering if it was a re-run.

"Didn't we hear that before?" "He said that last time." "We've already heard those numbers."
It seemed they were both pretty much sticking to pulling from their stump speeches, and maybe forgot that they'd done the same thing a couple of weeks ago. The same false accusations, rebutted with the same words ...

There was though, one passage which grabbed my attention -- when McCain asserted:

"I'll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him. I'll get him no matter what and I know how to do it."

I couldn't help but think "If that's true, why haven't you picked up the phone sometime in the last seven years and called up your buddy GWB and let him in on your little secret?"

I thought that, and then mentally added: "And quit calling me your 'friend.' This is the 14th time thus far tonight you've used that phrase, and I want you to stop. I'm not your friend, John, and I just don't want you to continue calling me that. It's cloying pandering, and it ain't working."

IMO Obama was the clear victor in last night's debate. McCain said he was answering questions (implying Obama wasn't) but he wasn't. He was throwing out ancient platitudes most of the evening: "This is the greatest country in the world." OK, you get to say that once, but you don't get to use that as your default answer to any hard question, John. John? Over here, John. Get back on the stage, John, and please go stand beside "That one."

<slipping JM note: "Obama. His name's senator Obama.">

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

BoxDog wrote:
Where is Obamas "well he should be able to do two things at once comment" now? What with Biden out seeing his adult son and deceased in law off to their respective duties, or fate, as it were. Out on bereavement leave? During the final month of a major presidential campaign? I'm sorry, but what's good for the goose and all. If Matt Bryant of the NFL could come back four days after the death of his infant son to kick his field goals, as is HIS JOB, then Biden should not have set the campaign on the back burner? At least McCain was claiming to suspend his campaign " for the good of the financial crisis". Sounds alot better than well, he had to weep. Is that not obvious? Or do the standards change like the tides, with the press?
Whoa. Are you honestly telling me you see no difference whatsoever in John McCain saying he's going to SUSPEND the campaign because HE has to go to DC and "solve" the money crisis, so yikes ... can't make the debate and all, and Joe Biden saying AFTER his only scheduled debate he's going to take TWO DAYS off to bury his mother-in-law?? Monday and Tuesday. That's it.

I get the distinct feeling I may have come across as insensitive. Jills mother was long ill, in hospice and in good hands. But, I'll concede that maybe Biden should put some big boy pants on, wipe his crocodile tears and bow out altogether to be by his loving wifes side.

Wow.
Well, clearly we're not going to come to any consensus here...

BoxDog · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

BoxDog wrote:
Where is Obamas "well he should be able to do two things at once comment" now? What with Biden out seeing his adult son and deceased in law off to their respective duties, or fate, as it were. Out on bereavement leave? During the final month of a major presidential campaign? I'm sorry, but what's good for the goose and all. If Matt Bryant of the NFL could come back four days after the death of his infant son to kick his field goals, as is HIS JOB, then Biden should not have set the campaign on the back burner? At least McCain was claiming to suspend his campaign " for the good of the financial crisis". Sounds alot better than well, he had to weep. Is that not obvious? Or do the standards change like the tides, with the press?
Whoa. Are you honestly telling me you see no difference whatsoever in John McCain saying he's going to SUSPEND the campaign because HE has to go to DC and "solve" the money crisis, so yikes ... can't make the debate and all, and Joe Biden saying AFTER his only scheduled debate he's going to take TWO DAYS off to bury his mother-in-law?? Monday and Tuesday. That's it.

I get the distinct feeling I may have come across as insensitive. Jills mother was long ill, in hospice and in good hands. But, I'll concede that maybe Biden should put some big boy pants on, wipe his crocodile tears and bow out altogether to be by his loving wifes side. After all, the VP's main job is campaigning, fundraising and those pesky funerals they attend on behalf of the nation. Oh well, I re-pierced two closed holes in my ear for this wedding and now have an outfit that looks like I'm auditioning for a role in the L Word, as like Bettes assistant or something. So, yeah, I'm a little cranky. Lemme see JB pierce his own ears in a fit.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

BoxDog wrote:
Where is Obamas "well he should be able to do two things at once comment" now? What with Biden out seeing his adult son and deceased in law off to their respective duties, or fate, as it were. Out on bereavement leave? During the final month of a major presidential campaign? I'm sorry, but what's good for the goose and all. If Matt Bryant of the NFL could come back four days after the death of his infant son to kick his field goals, as is HIS JOB, then Biden should not have set the campaign on the back burner? At least McCain was claiming to suspend his campaign " for the good of the financial crisis". Sounds alot better than well, he had to weep. Is that not obvious? Or do the standards change like the tides, with the press?

Whoa. Are you honestly telling me you see no difference whatsoever in John McCain saying he's going to SUSPEND the campaign because HE has to go to DC and "solve" the money crisis, so yikes ... can't make the debate and all, and Joe Biden saying AFTER his only scheduled debate he's going to take TWO DAYS off to bury his mother-in-law?? Monday and Tuesday. That's it.

Psych Lit · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Funny, this is the exact way I see obama. just modify a couple of sentences and replace "submission of strong, beautiful women" with " "seemingly peaceful, friendly, educated black man". And, they are both pawns. However, the pawn in charge not only disgusts and terrifies me, but according to his own words learned at a very young age how NOT to show he was just another "angry black man".

i have to share with you the big handpainted sign that someone had erected in front of his house in good ole blue state mass. it said nobama, no muslims, no commies, no funny walkers. i have no idea what the last one is but it struck me how angry that person must be to have erected that sign in the first place. im assuming a he tho who knows? one of the things that is disturbing here is how heated up this whole thing has gotten and how we are coming close to losing sight of the good in the process. we have a tv in the locker room at the y and when i was getting dressed today i was listening to cspan peggy noonan was the guest and despite her conservatism:) she was making sense. she spoke about american history and what a messy wonderful process it was and how she notices the lack of love for that history and that process thats taking place in this contest. we are the united states of america and i wish that we were taking more of an interest in the greater good, the uniting principle etc rather than the things that tear us apart. for the first time in my adult life i am frightened about the direction we are headed in and im worried that all of this side taking will cost us and keep us from solving the many many problems that need to be solved. like em or not these are the people we are stuck with and the decision has to be which of these two do we think can do a better job. in the spirit of that heres my sarah compliment for the day! i appreciated and found very effective the line about looking backward. it spoke volumes to me. the obama campaign began as a declaration of change and yet that backward look. we are on the frontier of something as yet undefined and we need to be as forward looking as we possibly can.

At minimum we hear what seems to be on Palins mind, like it or not. And you know, those "ties" she speaks of? They aren't far fetched. We just better hope to the gods they are of another day and long since severed.

i think ayers is such a part of the elite middle class these days i cant imagine him picking up any weapon.rev wright too for that matter. lots of big noise not a lot of substance tho for those listening there is a clear and present danger. but to dig up acts done 40 years ago when the person in question has done the crime and the time seems a bit of a stretch and besides those days were different times and to split the context from the act and hold it up as an act of presentism seems a mistake to me. that was then, this is now and do we do background checks on everybody thats at a house party or serving on a committee with us?

I don't think the real civil rights groundbreakers had this in mind when they gave their lives for equality and representation. I think they would have liked to have seen an black man lead, and one who was on the same page as other minorities, NOT in the pockets of the majority rulers.

this is a good point tho taht person would be unelectable.

Ever wonder why obama is so adamantly opposed to and uncomfortable with debating in "town hall" settings? It's so much easier to globe trot and cheerlead to a small groups of sheep at a time and unopposed. He's still just a big "pufferfish" at the end of the day. And that unbalance, misbalance, overwhelmingly democratic executive and legislative branch is the most frightening thing I could think of, and one that would set us back over thirty years.

I just broke a promise, sue me.

what was the promise?

btw, they sure do hide that angry black woman of his since they changed their minds about her freedom of speech, nice job there. Where in the world is MObama?

she was on larry king last night? or is it tonight? alas i dunno i wont be watching i gotta get to bed so i can get up at 3 for a 6 am flight. with luck tho ill be back my 9 thurs just in time to go to bed early again so i can get up at 3am again to catch a 6 am bus with one of my kids to go leaf peeping in new hampshire. did i mention one of my health resolutions was to get more sleep?

-- Edited by BoxDog at 04:48, 2008-10-06

BoxDog · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

OKfine, Voodoo Queen. Just remember who opened this minister can of worms, though....
Palin Slams Obama's Ties to Wright, Ayers
By BETH FOUHY,
AP
CLEARWATER, Fla. (Oct. 6) - Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin expanded her attack on Democrat Barack Obama's character Monday to include his relationship with an incendiary former pastor as well as his ties to 1960s-era radical Bill Ayers.

In the process, Palin toned down her description of the Obama-Ayers relationship after her weekend remarks were criticized as exaggerated, but at the same time she embarked on a discussion of Obama's relationship with his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., which Republican presidential candidate John McCain had signaled he did not want to be a part of his campaign.

In an interview with conservative The New York Times columnist William Kristol published Monday, the Alaska governor said there should be more discussion about Wright, Obama's pastor of 20 years at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. The Democratic candidate denounced Wright and severed ties with the church last spring after videotapes surfaced showing Wright making anti-American and anti-Semitic comments from the pulpit.

Wright had appeared to be off limits for the McCain campaign ever since McCain himself condemned the North Carolina Republican Party in April for an ad that called Obama "too extreme" because Wright was his pastor. He asked the party to take down the ad and said, "I'm making it very clear, as I have a couple of times in the past, that there's no place for that kind of campaigning, and the American people don't want it."

When Kristol pressed Palin about Wright, she replied, "I don't know why that association isn't discussed more, because those were appalling things that that pastor had said about our great country."

She continued, "To me, that does say something about character. But, you know, I guess that would be a John McCain call on whether he wants to bring that up."

At a morning rally in Florida, Palin kept up her criticism of Obama's ties to Ayers, a founder of the violent Weather Underground group blamed for several bombings during the Vietnam War era, when Obama was a child.
The Illinois senator has denounced Ayers' radical views and activities.

"This is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who targeted his own country," Palin said of Obama. That was a tamer description than Palin used at rallies in California and Colorado over the weekend.

In her earlier attacks, Palin had said that Obama "pals around with terrorists." News reports pointed out that Obama was eight years old at the time of Weather Underground bombings and that the two men do not know each other well although they live in the same Chicago neighborhood, have served on a charity board together and Ayers hosted a meet-the-candidate event when Obama first ran for state office in the mid-1990s.

Reporters weren't permitted to wander around inside Coachman Park in Clearwater to talk to Palin's audience, the St. Petersburg Times reported.
When reporters tried to leave the designated press area and head to where the crowd was seated, an escort would dart out, confront him or her and say, "Can I help you?" and turn the person around, Times staff writer Eileen Schulte wrote on the paper's Web site. When one reporter asked an escort, who would not give her name, why the press wasn't allowed to mingle, she said that in the past, negative things had been written, Schulte reported.

Later, Obama adviser David Axelrod told CNN the Illinois senator "didn't know the history" of Ayers' Weather Underground activities when Ayers hosted the 1995 gathering. Speaking in Estero, Fla., Palin responded, "Today they're saying for the first time that Barack Obama didn't know back then about Ayers' radical background."
Palin was spending two days in Florida, which President Bush won easily in 2004 but has become competitive this time.

(end of AP article)

Where is Obamas "well he should be able to do two things at once comment" now? What with Biden out seeing his adult son and deceased in law off to their respective duties, or fate, as it were. Out on bereavement leave? During the final month of a major presidential campaign? I'm sorry, but what's good for the goose and all. If Matt Bryant of the NFL could come back four days after the death of his infant son to kick his field goals, as is HIS JOB, then Biden should not have set the campaign on the back burner? At least McCain was claiming to suspend his campaign " for the good of the financial crisis". Sounds alot better than well, he had to weep. Is that not obvious? Or do the standards change like the tides, with the press? She's tough, I give her that. Whether she makes any sense at times? I think she'll fit right in. Nobody in the federal government seems to any longer. And to correct the articles claim that Bush won easily in 2004, he didn't. 51-48% is not "easily", couple that with a large Nader turnout and who the hell knows. My sister with the 14 y.o. went to the rally. Sort of a civics lesson. Don't know quite how I feel about that, considering one took an emergent personal day and the kiddo no showed for school...but if the kid is as much like myself as I think she is? She'll feel the same as I do that BO is the next Carter. What she won't know is just how bad an administration and what an embarrassment JC was. Also, just how far back that set the democrats when challenged by a crappy western actor from the left coast.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

OKfine, Voodoo Queen. Just remember who opened this minister can of worms, though....

Palin Slams Obama's Ties to Wright, Ayers

By BETH FOUHY,

AP

CLEARWATER, Fla. (Oct. 6) - Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin expanded her attack on Democrat Barack Obama's character Monday to include his relationship with an incendiary former pastor as well as his ties to 1960s-era radical Bill Ayers.

In the process, Palin toned down her description of the Obama-Ayers relationship after her weekend remarks were criticized as exaggerated, but at the same time she embarked on a discussion of Obama's relationship with his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., which Republican presidential candidate John McCain had signaled he did not want to be a part of his campaign.

In an interview with conservative The New York Times columnist William Kristol published Monday, the Alaska governor said there should be more discussion about Wright, Obama's pastor of 20 years at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. The Democratic candidate denounced Wright and severed ties with the church last spring after videotapes surfaced showing Wright making anti-American and anti-Semitic comments from the pulpit.

Wright had appeared to be off limits for the McCain campaign ever since McCain himself condemned the North Carolina Republican Party in April for an ad that called Obama "too extreme" because Wright was his pastor. He asked the party to take down the ad and said, "I'm making it very clear, as I have a couple of times in the past, that there's no place for that kind of campaigning, and the American people don't want it."

When Kristol pressed Palin about Wright, she replied, "I don't know why that association isn't discussed more, because those were appalling things that that pastor had said about our great country."

She continued, "To me, that does say something about character. But, you know, I guess that would be a John McCain call on whether he wants to bring that up."

At a morning rally in Florida, Palin kept up her criticism of Obama's ties to Ayers, a founder of the violent Weather Underground group blamed for several bombings during the Vietnam War era, when Obama was a child.

The Illinois senator has denounced Ayers' radical views and activities.

"This is someone who sees America as 'imperfect enough' to work with a former domestic terrorist who targeted his own country," Palin said of Obama. That was a tamer description than Palin used at rallies in California and Colorado over the weekend.

In her earlier attacks, Palin had said that Obama "pals around with terrorists." News reports pointed out that Obama was eight years old at the time of Weather Underground bombings and that the two men do not know each other well although they live in the same Chicago neighborhood, have served on a charity board together and Ayers hosted a meet-the-candidate event when Obama first ran for state office in the mid-1990s.

Reporters weren't permitted to wander around inside Coachman Park in Clearwater to talk to Palin's audience, the St. Petersburg Times reported.

When reporters tried to leave the designated press area and head to where the crowd was seated, an escort would dart out, confront him or her and say, "Can I help you?" and turn the person around, Times staff writer Eileen Schulte wrote on the paper's Web site. When one reporter asked an escort, who would not give her name, why the press wasn't allowed to mingle, she said that in the past, negative things had been written, Schulte reported.

Later, Obama adviser David Axelrod told CNN the Illinois senator "didn't know the history" of Ayers' Weather Underground activities when Ayers hosted the 1995 gathering. Speaking in Estero, Fla., Palin responded, "Today they're saying for the first time that Barack Obama didn't know back then about Ayers' radical background."

Palin was spending two days in Florida, which President Bush won easily in 2004 but has become competitive this time.

(end of AP article)

blankstare

BoxDog · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

sarah palin reminds me of every backlash movement against women ever. its the way males fight against real equality for women by using those very freedoms or newly acquired rights against them.

if true feminism is about choice then sarah palin is making choices that suit her is the way that argument goes. and golly look at her she can run for vp and she still holds onto every mans ideal of femininity. how many times in recent weeks have we heard someone (usually male)say that they want to remove her glasses and let down her hair? its the classic act of submission of strong beautiful women.

Funny, this is the exact way I see obama. just modify a couple of sentences and replace "submission of strong, beautiful women" with " "seemingly peaceful, friendly, educated black man". And, they are both pawns. However, the pawn in charge not only disgusts and terrifies me, but according to his own words learned at a very young age how NOT to show he was just another "angry black man".

At minimum we hear what seems to be on Palins mind, like it or not. And you know, those "ties" she speaks of? They aren't far fetched. We just better hope to the gods they are of another day and long since severed.

I don't think the real civil rights groundbreakers had this in mind when they gave their lives for equality and representation. I think they would have liked to have seen an black man lead, and one who was on the same page as other minorities, NOT in the pockets of the majority rulers. It sorta defeats the point. We are headed down a very dark path.

Ever wonder why obama is so adamantly opposed to and uncomfortable with debating in "town hall" settings? It's so much easier to globe trot and cheerlead to a small groups of sheep at a time and unopposed. He's still just a big "pufferfish" at the end of the day. And that unbalance, misbalance, overwhelmingly democratic executive and legislative branch is the most frightening thing I could think of, and one that would set us back over thirty years.

I just broke a promise, sue me.

btw, they sure do hide that angry black woman of his since they changed their minds about her freedom of speech, nice job there. Where in the world is MObama?

-- Edited by BoxDog at 04:48, 2008-10-06

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

It doesn't seem, though, that the American electorate is buying into it.

There have sure been plenty of ironies this election season. In the VP debates, it seemed as if Biden actually trumped Palin in the "I'm just a good Mom" thing when he recounted being a single parent, not knowing if one of his kids was going to survive. It was sincere in its delivery (a definite plus) and also, brilliant politics IMO. If Sarah Palin's best qualification for being Vice President of the United States is being a pit bull with lipstick, then Joe Biden showed us in the debate that he can be the same thing, only with a better shade of lipstick.

im dismayed by what ive seen today with palin. that practically calling obama a terrorist guilt by association thing was just ugly. as was the body language that accompanied the comment. clearly they are reaching the point of desparation.

Another irony along these same lines is that in chosing Palin as his running mate over clearly more (and I use the term "more" advisedly) qualified women, he actually made what might be interpreted as a misogynistic decision. It would seem as if the implication is one "vagina is as good as the next." What he, and a lot of people still refuse to "get" is that H. Clinton was, and is, so much more than a vagina. I bristled when male commentators said, during the primary, that the only reason she was doing well was because she was a woman whose husband had cheated on her. Her extremely high IQ, her years of experience, her determination to get things "right" in this country -- all those things were dismissed. What mattered was not what was or wasn't between her ears, but rather what was, or wasn't between her legs.

hillarys problem is the belief by most men that she suffers from "vagina dentata." she is everymans nightmare a woman who cannot be bullied.

Sarah Palin, who flaunts her association with "Feminists against everything which might provide equal rights for women" or whatever the name of that organization is. And there's the biggest and saddest potential irony of them all: what actual feminist could ever swallow the bitter pill of the first of her gender to actually gain entrance to the White House by election being Sarah Palin?!

sarah palin reminds me of every backlash movement against women ever. its the way males fight against real equality for women by using those very freedoms or newly acquired rights against them.
if true feminism is about choice then sarah palin is making choices that suit her is the way that argument goes. and golly look at her she can run for vp and she still holds onto every mans ideal of femininity. how many times in recent weeks have we heard someone (usually male)say that they want to remove her glasses and let down her hair? its the classic act of submission of strong beautiful women.

So shame on you, John McCain, for making a political blunder I could not previously envision your making. When you first announced her, I, like most of the country figured she was an up-and-coming about whom I'd just not heard much, but clearly, considering the women you passed over to chose her, she must have some merit.

i suppose he chose her because she was an unknown and because she is attractive and youthful and had a reputation as an outsider and shaker-upper. heres the thing that mystifies me. we hear that she doesnt know much about foreign policy, or economics or really anything else presumably because shes a governor. why hasnt the press made comparisons between her knowledge base and any of the other former candidates who were also governors. romney, huckabee and richardson, for instance, are all governors and each has far more knowledge than palin. so why hasnt this been mentioned?

And that's why, on second thought, I guess I have a love/hate relationship with politics. There are just too many varibles to ever really nail it. This year seems to be one where the goal is to see who can best top the blunder of the other party. The democratic party didn't pick Hillary Clinton. Only a Sarah Palin could have trumped that mismove.

one of the movies i rented today for pie making day was charlie wilsons war. on its face its the story of how one congressman thru covert actions manages to fund the afghan resistance and help to defeat the soviets which leads to the fall of the soviet union. but we in the audience also know something that the characters do not and that is that this action creates the place where osama the terrorist begins. at the end of the story the cia character tells a zen master story. heres how the story is recounted in a boston globe article:

"he (the cia op) tells the story of a Zen master who oberves the people of his village celebrating a young boy's new horse as a wonderful gift. "We'll see," the Zen master says. When the boy falls off the horse and breaks a leg, everyone says the horse is a curse. "We'll see," says the master. Then war breaks out, the boy cannot be conscripted because of his injury, and everyone now says the horse was a fortunate gift. "We'll see," the master says again.

and isnt that where we are with this election? the twists and turns are breathtaking and not in a good way:) well see should be on the next set of bumper stickers. i dont know if the dems will be allowed to run down the clock. i think it will become increasingly nasty toward the end of this, so nasty that people may be so sick of it by election day that they cannot even stand the thought of engaging enough to vote.

The scary part is, it seems it's now the democrats turn again. With only 30 days left to go, I hope they run the clock out on this one, but I guess that remains to be seen. Let's just hope if Obama is in a restroom stall, he doesn't have his iPod ear buds in, and begins tapping his foot to a catchy tune ....

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

milo wrote:
She is a woman hater, an ndn hater, wonder how she feels about those other "colored" people, yanno, they brown ones, yellow ones, and black ones.

Maybe she "tolerates" them ... you know, like she does GLBT people? wink

milo · Veteran Member

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

John McCain ruined the party.

No, not the republican party -- my party.

See, I "like" politics. More than that, actually. It could probably be said I "love" politcs. For me, in a way, it's like an online or video puzzle game, only unlike those, this one actually "matters."

When it comes to politics, I like to be able to "forecast" based upon a combination of the past and present.

The thing about politics, though, is you can't "predict" the unpredictable.
Speaking purely politically, there's no way Obama "should" have been able to "take" Michigan this year, where there is presently a high "anti-Black" thing happening locally, when it comes to politicians. I think probably one of the most shocking things this whole year is McCain's pulling out of that state. I may only attribute that to one of three things: the present economic crisis, Sarah Palin, or a combination of the two. That they were both unpredictable (although the economic crisis, not so much so) changes the look of the whole board, and one must stop dead in their tracks, and begin anew.

I'm mad a John McCain -- even though I surely never wanted him to win -- because he made a truly uncharacteristic decision, in selecting an obviously unvetted Sarah Palin. Mad because it was just a bonehead thing to do, probably done out of spite, as much as anything. McCain wanted Joe Lieberman. Really wanted him for a running mate, and the GOP said: "No. No freakin' way." So? McCain then said: "Alright, fine. I'll do it your way. I'll pick a damn woman. OK??" And so he did. But not the "woman" they wanted. Not really. Maybe he figured the next best thing to a democrat was a woman who didn't know anything: an utterly clean slate upon which he could scribble any way he wanted, and maybe he figured he could get Joe Lieberman and others to pick up that chalk and write on that pretty slate for him. Maybe, if she was malleable enough, he could actually have Lieberman, only Lieberman in a mask. Then, maybe he could plop Lieberman in some bogus cabinet position where his sole job was to tell Sarah Palin what Sarah Palin thought about things.

Maybe that was the plan all along.

It doesn't seem, though, that the American electorate is buying into it.

There have sure been plenty of ironies this election season. In the VP debates, it seemed as if Biden actually trumped Palin in the "I'm just a good Mom" thing when he recounted being a single parent, not knowing if one of his kids was going to survive. It was sincere in its delivery (a definite plus) and also, brilliant politics IMO. If Sarah Palin's best qualification for being Vice President of the United States is being a pit bull with lipstick, then Joe Biden showed us in the debate that he can be the same thing, only with a better shade of lipstick.

Another irony along these same lines is that in chosing Palin as his running mate over clearly more (and I use the term "more" advisedly) qualified women, he actually made what might be interpreted as a misogynistic decision. It would seem as if the implication is one "vagina is as good as the next." What he, and a lot of people still refuse to "get" is that H. Clinton was, and is, so much more than a vagina. I bristled when male commentators said, during the primary, that the only reason she was doing well was because she was a woman whose husband had cheated on her. Her extremely high IQ, her years of experience, her determination to get things "right" in this country -- all those things were dismissed. What mattered was not what was or wasn't between her ears, but rather what was, or wasn't between her legs.

And now, as if to prove that absurd notion, we are presented with Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin, who flaunts her association with "Feminists against everything which might provide equal rights for women" or whatever the name of that organization is. And there's the biggest and saddest potential irony of them all: what actual feminist could ever swallow the bitter pill of the first of her gender to actually gain entrance to the White House by election being Sarah Palin?!

So shame on you, John McCain, for making a political blunder I could not previously envision your making. When you first announced her, I, like most of the country figured she was an up-and-coming about whom I'd just not heard much, but clearly, considering the women you passed over to chose her, she must have some merit.

And that's why, on second thought, I guess I have a love/hate relationship with politics. There are just too many varibles to ever really nail it. This year seems to be one where the goal is to see who can best top the blunder of the other party. The democratic party didn't pick Hillary Clinton. Only a Sarah Palin could have trumped that mismove.

The scary part is, it seems it's now the democrats turn again. With only 30 days left to go, I hope they run the clock out on this one, but I guess that remains to be seen. Let's just hope if Obama is in a restroom stall, he doesn't have his iPod ear buds in, and begins tapping his foot to a catchy tune ....

I really really dis-like Obama, and had every intention of voting against him. John fixed that tough. I cannot take the chance SP may accidentally become the president by default, the woman scares me. If she could justify any of her ideas beyond, because the bible tells me so, I might could listen to her arguments. She can't make a good argument.

Then there is that whole killing wolves thing.

Then there is the Native thing, I read three NA news papers, none of which have a good word for her. She wants to remove sustenance hunting and fishing rights, what those people supposed to eat? it isn't like there is a Kroger on the corner, hell, there isn't even that many corners. NA hunting and fishing accounts for 2% of the hunting and fishing in Alaska, how much can that hurt her commercial and sports hunting and fishing? She wants to remove the sovreign status of the nations. I have heard her husband is "part" Eskimo, if he is his "part" must be *******, cuz heart doesn't screw its own people. You all should know how I feel about this whole treaty thing, and I don't like her ideas.

By gawd, I believe she is a white man, LOL. She is a woman hater, an ndn hater, wonder how she feels about those other "colored" people, yanno, they brown ones, yellow ones, and black ones.
Here have a moose burger I killed from the warmth and protection of a helicopter.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

John McCain ruined the party.

No, not the republican party -- my party.

See, I "like" politics. More than that, actually. It could probably be said I "love" politcs. For me, in a way, it's like an online or video puzzle game, only unlike those, this one actually "matters."

When it comes to politics, I like to be able to "forecast" based upon a combination of the past and present.

The thing about politics, though, is you can't "predict" the unpredictable.
Speaking purely politically, there's no way Obama "should" have been able to "take" Michigan this year, where there is presently a high "anti-Black" thing happening locally, when it comes to politicians. I think probably one of the most shocking things this whole year is McCain's pulling out of that state. I may only attribute that to one of three things: the present economic crisis, Sarah Palin, or a combination of the two. That they were both unpredictable (although the economic crisis, not so much so) changes the look of the whole board, and one must stop dead in their tracks, and begin anew.

I'm mad a John McCain -- even though I surely never wanted him to win -- because he made a truly uncharacteristic decision, in selecting an obviously unvetted Sarah Palin. Mad because it was just a bonehead thing to do, probably done out of spite, as much as anything. McCain wanted Joe Lieberman. Really wanted him for a running mate, and the GOP said: "No. No freakin' way." So? McCain then said: "Alright, fine. I'll do it your way. I'll pick a damn woman. OK??" And so he did. But not the "woman" they wanted. Not really. Maybe he figured the next best thing to a democrat was a woman who didn't know anything: an utterly clean slate upon which he could scribble any way he wanted, and maybe he figured he could get Joe Lieberman and others to pick up that chalk and write on that pretty slate for him. Maybe, if she was malleable enough, he could actually have Lieberman, only Lieberman in a mask. Then, maybe he could plop Lieberman in some bogus cabinet position where his sole job was to tell Sarah Palin what Sarah Palin thought about things.

Maybe that was the plan all along.

It doesn't seem, though, that the American electorate is buying into it.

There have sure been plenty of ironies this election season. In the VP debates, it seemed as if Biden actually trumped Palin in the "I'm just a good Mom" thing when he recounted being a single parent, not knowing if one of his kids was going to survive. It was sincere in its delivery (a definite plus) and also, brilliant politics IMO. If Sarah Palin's best qualification for being Vice President of the United States is being a pit bull with lipstick, then Joe Biden showed us in the debate that he can be the same thing, only with a better shade of lipstick.

Another irony along these same lines is that in chosing Palin as his running mate over clearly more (and I use the term "more" advisedly) qualified women, he actually made what might be interpreted as a misogynistic decision. It would seem as if the implication is one "vagina is as good as the next." What he, and a lot of people still refuse to "get" is that H. Clinton was, and is, so much more than a vagina. I bristled when male commentators said, during the primary, that the only reason she was doing well was because she was a woman whose husband had cheated on her. Her extremely high IQ, her years of experience, her determination to get things "right" in this country -- all those things were dismissed. What mattered was not what was or wasn't between her ears, but rather what was, or wasn't between her legs.

And now, as if to prove that absurd notion, we are presented with Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin, who flaunts her association with "Feminists against everything which might provide equal rights for women" or whatever the name of that organization is. And there's the biggest and saddest potential irony of them all: what actual feminist could ever swallow the bitter pill of the first of her gender to actually gain entrance to the White House by election being Sarah Palin?!

So shame on you, John McCain, for making a political blunder I could not previously envision your making. When you first announced her, I, like most of the country figured she was an up-and-coming about whom I'd just not heard much, but clearly, considering the women you passed over to chose her, she must have some merit.

And that's why, on second thought, I guess I have a love/hate relationship with politics. There are just too many varibles to ever really nail it. This year seems to be one where the goal is to see who can best top the blunder of the other party. The democratic party didn't pick Hillary Clinton. Only a Sarah Palin could have trumped that mismove.

The scary part is, it seems it's now the democrats turn again. With only 30 days left to go, I hope they run the clock out on this one, but I guess that remains to be seen. Let's just hope if Obama is in a restroom stall, he doesn't have his iPod ear buds in, and begins tapping his foot to a catchy tune .... weirdface

Psych Lit · Guru

BoxDog wrote:
MyCat8it wrote:

last spring? Whenever, and the weather was absolutely beautiful. Apparently it was drizzling in Thailand or something so everything at Philly shut down. Bad night.

ROFL! that happens all the time in the philly/new york corridor. the northeast has air traffic problems and if there is a back up anywhere in the system they immediately start cancelling east coast flights. thats cause theres no way in hell they can land or take off once the delays start. they are maxed out in take off slots and gates. so if its raining in charlotte, philly is gonna be a mess of cancelled flights. i hope you have a safe flight and a peaceful visit!

BoxDog · Guru

MyCat8it wrote:

BoxDog wrote:

Never got the tickets cuz I thought my trip was this weekend. :( Obviously it isn't, so it's baseball! On tv, now if we win tonight I may pay the big cash to go to tomorrows game, we'll see. We could have a World Series HERE.

And, if you get tickets, grab one for me. I guarantee the funds. I would have loved to been at either of the games this week. I just finished watching the Rays game 6-2 in the second game of the playoffs.

What will I do if the Phillies and the Rays end up in the series? I guess the good news is that i'm happy with whoever wins, right?

And too, now you remind me that I'm flying into Philly Wednesday night and back out of it on Sunday. I have no idea of the teams schedule. I just hope it's "away". Far away from Philly airport. I spent the entire night there last spring? Whenever, and the weather was absolutely beautiful. Apparently it was drizzling in Thailand or something so everything at Philly shut down. Bad night.

milo · Veteran Member

AnonymousOoops.T wrote:

Pack a bag! We're going to Chi-town dear. I thought the 3rd game was here, this "best of" is going to Chicago tomorrow :( Good news, we're up the first two games, bad news, NONE! (I forgot about the Philly thing, go Phillies!) Hell, if it can't be the Mets AGAIN, I'll root for your Phillies. Anyone but the Dodgers.

nononono just watch that game on the tube!
I am doing my best to have your Chi-town passport revoked.

Date: Sat Oct 4 3:02 AM, 2008

MyCat8it wrote:

BoxDog wrote:

Never got the tickets cuz I thought my trip was this weekend. :( Obviously it isn't, so it's baseball! On tv, now if we win tonight I may pay the big cash to go to tomorrows game, we'll see. We could have a World Series HERE.

And, if you get tickets, grab one for me. I guarantee the funds. I would have loved to been at either of the games this week. I just finished watching the Rays game 6-2 in the second game of the playoffs.

What will I do if the Phillies and the Rays end up in the series? I guess the good news is that i'm happy with whoever wins, right?

Pack a bag! We're going to Chi-town dear. I thought the 3rd game was here, this "best of" is going to Chicago tomorrow :( Good news, we're up the first two games, bad news, NONE! (I forgot about the Philly thing, go Phillies!) Hell, if it can't be the Mets AGAIN, I'll root for your Phillies. Anyone but the Dodgers.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

hile somebody somewhere twists his ring
And someone kneels.
Oh, where is the sun Shining for everyone?
Where is the sun Shining for everyone?"

-------------------
"Dark," yes, but ... "smart," too.

very smart. thats one of the reasons i enjoy her so. the talent it takes to paint an 8 year picture of bush/cheney policy in 200 words or less with a melody to boot! cheryl wheeler is another favorite of mine for similar reasons. she has a unique grasp on things but isnt quite as poetic as dar

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

one of my pals had the unfortunate timing of having to deliver a lecture earlier this evening. it was scheduled months ago so no way to know that shed be competing foar an audience with the debate. i went with some others to listen so she wouldnt have the experience of lecturing to an empty room.
... what a good friend you are.

ya gotta feel for someone stuck with that schedule, yanno?

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

one of my pals had the unfortunate timing of having to deliver a lecture earlier this evening. it was scheduled months ago so no way to know that shed be competing foar an audience with the debate. i went with some others to listen so she wouldnt have the experience of lecturing to an empty room.

... what a good friend you are. smile

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

thanks for posting this. if only people would fact check the things that get said in these debates before casting their votes. i think shes banking on the people who like her style also being the people who are not likely to fact check. im going to see dar williams tonight

:gasp: You lucky dog, you. If she does "Empire" or "Pompei" please think of me.

will do. two of my favorites also! i love the lyrics to empire.

EMPIRE -- Dar Williams

"Who's afraid of the sun?
Who would question the goodness of the mighty?
We who banish the threat,
When your little ones all go nighty nighty?
Well there's no time for doubt right now,
And less time to explain.
So get back on your horses,
Kiss my ring,
And join our next campaign,

And the Empire grows
with the news that we're winning,
With more fear to conquer,
more gold thread for spinning,
Till it's bright as the sun,
Shining on everyone.

Some would say that we've forced our words,
And we find that ingenuously churlish.
Words are just words.
Don't be so pessimistic, weak and girlish.
We like strong, happy people
Who don't think
there's something wrong with pride,
Work makes them free,
And we spread that freedom far and wide,

And the Empire grows the seeds of its glory,
For every five tanks,
Plant a sentimental story,

Till they worship the sun,
Even Christ loving ones.
And we'll kill the terrorizers
and a million of their races,

But when our people torture you,
that's a few random cases.
Don't question the sun.
It doesn't help anyone.

But the journalists cried out,
When it was too late to stop us.
Everyone had awakened
To the dream they could enter our colossus.
And now I'm right, yeah, you said I'm right,
There's nothing that can harm me,
Cause the sun never sets on my dungeons or my army,

And the Empire fell on its own shattered axis,
And the Emperor wanes as the silver moon waxes,
And the farmers will find old coins
In their strawberry fields,
While somebody somewhere twists his ring
And someone kneels.
Oh, where is the sun Shining for everyone?
Where is the sun Shining for everyone?"

-------------------
"Dark," yes, but ... "smart," too.

MyCat8it · Senior Member

BoxDog wrote:

Never got the tickets cuz I thought my trip was this weekend. :( Obviously it isn't, so it's baseball! On tv, now if we win tonight I may pay the big cash to go to tomorrows game, we'll see. We could have a World Series HERE.

And, if you get tickets, grab one for me. I guarantee the funds. I would have loved to been at either of the games this week. I just finished watching the Rays game 6-2 in the second game of the playoffs.

What will I do if the Phillies and the Rays end up in the series? I guess the good news is that i'm happy with whoever wins, right?

BoxDog · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

thanks for posting this. if only people would fact check the things that get said in these debates before casting their votes. i think shes banking on the people who like her style also being the people who are not likely to fact check. im going to see dar williams tonight

:gasp: You lucky dog, you. If she does "Empire" or "Pompei" please think of me.

will do. two of my favorites also! i love the lyrics to empire.

She went to my h.s. Few years behind me. I should be at Counting Crows tonight myself. Never got the tickets cuz I thought my trip was this weekend. :( Obviously it isn't, so it's baseball! On tv, now if we win tonight I may pay the big cash to go to tomorrows game, we'll see. We could have a World Series HERE.

Enjoy the show!

Okay, Rays won 6-2. Good news. Bad news? I won't be going to a game tomorrow. Next game in the series is in Chicago, on Sunday. So...tomorrow I'll be at the Komen Run/Walk. 7 a.m. Having chased busses for two months I should be in fine shape for it ;) And, at noon I have a guy coming to buy the Tracker, sight unseen. That's a good day. Ginseng.....

-- Edited by BoxDog at 19:25, 2008-10-03

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:
Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

thanks for posting this. if only people would fact check the things that get said in these debates before casting their votes. i think shes banking on the people who like her style also being the people who are not likely to fact check. im going to see dar williams tonight

:gasp: You lucky dog, you. If she does "Empire" or "Pompei" please think of me.

will do. two of my favorites also! i love the lyrics to empire.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

thanks for posting this. if only people would fact check the things that get said in these debates before casting their votes. i think shes banking on the people who like her style also being the people who are not likely to fact check. im going to see dar williams tonight

:gasp: You lucky dog, you. If she does "Empire" or "Pompei" please think of me.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

thanks for posting this. if only people would fact check the things that get said in these debates before casting their votes. i think shes banking on the people who like her style also being the people who are not likely to fact check. im going to see dar williams tonight so i'll miss olbermanns response to the debate tho i think i may tape it before i go. at least then i'll get a chuckle out of a not so humorous situation. did anyone see the article by the chicago trib writer? shes a conservative who wrote about palins not being ready to lead and received death threats as a result. scary stuff.

i see by my newspage that the house passed the oh good lets spend more money we dont have as a cure for a nation mired in debt, bill. the senate added another 110 billion to it tho so we cant blame only the house. of course with bush and mccain running around yelling the sky is falling they had to pass it. problem is even the experts say this wont solve the problem only slow it down and some say it will worsen it because, after all, the cure for spending too much is *not* to spend more. it will tho keep the crisis from reaching a peak on the first of the month conincidently just days before people vote. im thinking this 810b plan has more to do with not losing republican seats than it does with saving the economy.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

One thing I've been waiting and waiting to happen and hadn't until tonight was someone finally pulling the plug on that "John McCain is a maverick" mantra.

Joe Biden was perfectly situated by position to be the one to do it, and when he did tonight, it was a major exhale moment for me.

And just because it made me so happy.... biggrin

Here it is: the closest thing to a "knock out" we got last night:

"BIDEN: I'll be very brief. Can I respond to that?

Look, the maverick -- let's talk about the maverick John McCain is. And, again, I love him. He's been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people's lives.

He voted four out of five times for George Bush's budget, which put us a half a trillion dollars in debt this year and over $3 trillion in debt since he's got there.

He has not been a maverick in providing health care for people. He has voted against -- he voted including another 3.6 million children in coverage of the existing health care plan, when he voted in the United States Senate.

He's not been a maverick when it comes to education. He has not supported tax cuts and significant changes for people being able to send their kids to college.

He's not been a maverick on the war. He's not been a maverick on virtually anything that genuinely affects the things that people really talk about around their kitchen table.

Can we send -- can we get Mom's MRI? Can we send Mary back to school next semester? We can't -- we can't make it. How are we going to heat the -- heat the house this winter?

He voted against even providing for what they call LIHEAP, for assistance to people, with oil prices going through the roof in the winter.

So maverick he is not on the important, critical issues that affect people at that kitchen table."

-----------------------------------------------

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Interesting "fact check" article FYI:

VP Debate: Those Pesky Facts

By Tommy Christopher
Oct 3rd 2008 10:44AM

Filed Under:eBreaking News, Joe Biden, Debates, resident/">2008 President, Sarah Palin

Ah, the morning after. You had a reckless blast last night, doing or saying whatever felt good in that moment. Now, it's time to wake up and face facts. You're not really a movie-producing fireman-cop, and she isn't really on the pill.

FactCheck.org is the political that buzzkill friend who cluelessly salts your game whenever you bring him or her out with you.

They have already analyzed last night's Vice Presidential Debate, and although both candidates practiced elasticity of veracity, the winner of the FactCheck Derby was clearly Joe Biden. Just on volume, Biden had fewer miscues, but when you weight them for the seriousness of the error, the contrast is stark. You can check out their full report, but here's my rundown.

Palin: Falsely claimed that we are now at pre-surge troop levels. Even with scheduled withdrawals through February, 2009, we will still be 6,000 troops north of the pre-surge force size.

Biden: Said McCain voted "the exact same way" as Obama on troop funding. In reality, although McCain opposed a funding bill that included timelines for withdrawal, and urged the eventual veto, he didn't actually show up to vote on it.

I'd give Biden only half a point off, since what he said is true in spirit, if not to the letter. Palin gets a full point off, even though you could argue for more based on the grossness of the error, and its greater political significance.

Palin: Repeated again a false claim that Obama voted to raise taxes on families making only $42,000 a year, one that FactCheck has debunked twice. The lie is willful, since the McCain had already been forced to change their lying estimate once by FactCheck.

Biden: Again, inaccurately claimed that McCain had voted the "exact same way," when he had, again, skipped the vote.

In an abundance of fairness, I'll deduct a full point for each, even though Palin's lie is much more egregious, and the defense to Biden's mistake isn't really helpful to McCain. Palin:-2 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Falsely claimed McCain's health care plan would be "budget neutral." Independent estimates put the plan's cost, including revenue offsets from taxing employer-based plans, at $14-163 billion for just the year 2013. Palin:-3 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Falsely claimed that Obama's plan calls for healthcare to be "taken over by the feds," and that it would be "government run." This is a popular fallacy by the right, but it isn't true. Obama's plan calls for more choices in publicly funded health care. Palin:-4 Biden:-1.5

Biden: Said that McCain said he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain. FactCheck's defense of McCain is that he didn't say he wouldn't, just that he wouldn't commit to doing it. That's They also said that McCain probably didn't understand the question. This should actually be a point in Biden's favor, but I will generously call it a push. Palin:-4 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Said "But when you talk about Barack's plan to tax increase affecting only those making $250,000 a year or more, you're forgetting millions of small businesses that are going to fit into that category." However, independent estimates show that several hundred thousand small businesses, at most, would pay more under Obama's plan. Palin:-5 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Disagreed with Biden's assertion that the current U.S. commander in Afghanistan said that "surge principles" would not work there. The general did say that, and she got his name wrong. This could easily be two points or more, but I will only knock off one. Palin:-6 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Said that it is untrue that the U.S. is killing civilians in Afghanistan. According to an analysis by the AP, however, the US is killing more civilians than insurgents are. Palin: 7 Biden: 1.5

Biden: Said his "clean coal" line was taken out of context. In fact, his statement just didn't make sense, and his record shows clear support for clean coal. Palin: -7 Biden:- 2.5

Palin: Overstated the case that McCain "sounded the alarm" on Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae. I'd only take a half-point here. Palin: -7.5 Biden: -2.5

Palin: Misstated oil imports at $700 million, instead of true estimate of $493 million. Palin: -8.5 Biden:-2.5

Biden: Biden said McCain intends to deregulate health care. Fact Check got this wrong. I'll write a whole post about it later. Palin: -8.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: repeated several times the Obama campaign's fair, but technically unclear, assertion that McCain's plan gives $4billion a year to oil companies. It does, but as part of more massive giveaways to all corporations. This is a push. Palin: -8.5 Biden: -2.5

Palin: Criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy , saying "that's what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks." The bill did give breaks, but took away others, and the net effect was a tax increase for oil companies. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: Misstated Iraqi surplus as $80 million instead of $79 million. Push, he was rounding up. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: Misstated the number of times McCain voted against alternative energy. It was 11, not 20. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -3.5

Eventually, there may develop a "FactCheck Effect" that causes candidates to toe the line of accuracy more closely, to avoid these information hangovers. Maybe not, though. Everybody loves to brag about that great night, and nobody ever remembers the morning after.

Tommy Christopher co-hosts "Unusable Signal" , on BlogTalkRadio Tues & Thur at 9pm, and Wed, Fri, & Sat at 11pm. Click here for the Unusable Signal homepage.

----------------------------------
Heh. Wasn't it at this point (in blue) that Palin said "Welllll, tomorrow all the pundits will be talking about this, and the truth will come out, and people can see for themselves"?

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

MyCat8it wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

One thing I've been waiting and waiting to happen and hadn't until tonight was someone finally pulling the plug on that "John McCain is a maverick" mantra.

Joe Biden was perfectly situated by position to be the one to do it, and when he did tonight, it was a major exhale moment for me.

I was thinking last night, the debate could have been turned into a great drinking game. Every time someone said the word "Maverick" you need to drink.

I loved it when Biden retorted after about her 10th mention of "the mavericks coming to town."

At times, I felt like she was talking to the camera much in the manner a librarian would read a story to a group of children. I didn't find her likeable at all. I found her condescending, arrogant, and totally dodging direct questions. She redirected questions about health care and responded with taxes. Questions about mortgages were responded to with stories of oil drilling and Alaskan energy.

There is an irony here, isn't there. Palin's big "selling point" is supposed to be "she's just like us" (and specifically, a "soccer Mom") but IMO as has already been mentioned here, by Milo and you it's Biden who really (for me, anyway) came across selling that last night. You, Cat, thought "librarian" -- I thought "boring Sunday school teacher." She's only been on the national scene a month, and already she makes my skin crawl. And that "look!" You know, the one, she dons to broadcast a warning that she's about to lapse into her hokey "Weeeeeell, I'm just a Joe 6 pack kinda gal" accent and makes some snotty comment just makes me cringe:

When Tip O'Neil used to employ that self-abasing "I'm just an old country lawyer" line, it had charm because it was so not true. He was so much more than that. When Sarah Palin says: "I'm just a regular soccer Mom," however, it seems to be almost (in her case) self aggranizement, and sadly, frighteningly, one is inclined to agree. hmm

The thing I took away from last night's exchange was that even given bias, I objectively was just more inclined to listen to Joe Biden than Sarah Palin, because I felt he was actually speaking to and connecting with me, conversationally, whereas Palin repeatedly said that was what she was doing, but didn't actually do it. Biden made his points and made them well, I thought. The short answers benefitted him, and I was glad to see him take the time to repeat important points, like the "three recent weeks in Iraq has cost as much as seven years in Afghanistan." I didn't think Palin convinced anyone that the top of her ticket voted to support our troops but Obama and Biden didn't.

I really have a hard time listening to Palin. Maybe its because after the first five minutes you realize you're not going to hear anything new out of her. She's not going to answer a direct question -- she's going to find a part of her stump speech which might apply, and take the opportunity to repeat it.

I heard someone say, and thought it hit the nail on the head as a summary: "He looked presidential; she looked mayoral."

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 09:35, 2008-10-03

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

MyCat8it wrote:
I've been watching MSNBC all week, and I've heard a number of times, the idea that the media was purposely lowering the public's expectations of Palin for the debate. So, all she had to do was show up and not trip on her way to the podium and she would hit a home run. If she came across as articulate at all, everyone would say, "she did better than expected."

Ah, to have cable ... :)
This has struck me recently too, though (after the initial numbness wore off). Just how far are the American people willing to go when it comes to lowering the bar for Sarah Palin? I do realize we're still in "GWB mode" somewhat, so its starting place nearly scrapes the ground already, but it chills me to recognize that people are willing to vote for the ticket which includes Palin, and "forgive" her for not knowing what the hell she's talking about because she's "new." If she's "new" she doesn't belong there! You don't yank a kid out of the first day of driver's ed class, toss them the keys to an 18 wheeler, point them towards the freeway, and say: "hey -- you'll learn."

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Foreshadowing? Guess we'll see if it happens this way.

it sounds as tho this is exactly what happened! one of my pals had the unfortunate timing of having to deliver a lecture earlier this evening. it was scheduled months ago so no way to know that shed be competing foar an audience with the debate. i went with some others to listen so she wouldnt have the experience of lecturing to an empty room. i listened to some of the debate in the car on the way home and when i got home tuned in CNN which had a metered response going on so that people would know how it was playing to the mainstream and im catching the replay now. i expect a different experience seeing the facial and body expressions in total. from what i saw of the metered responses she did well when she talked about whats happening for families and biden did well when he spoke about the last 8 years and iraq. her answer about glbt rights was ignorant tho it towed the party line. shes tolerant? give me a freaking break who wants to be...tolerated. imagine saying that about african americans or hispanics..i tolerate them? yeah that would go over well.

That jumped out at me last night too. Sorta ticked me off. "Some of my best friends are..." sounded like it was right out of the 50s (but I'll "betcha" she wouldn't want her daughter marrying one.) and Yeah -- the word "tolerate" blew, IMO.

and i thought biden was actually gonna go the distance but he backed off and actually made what i think was an error when he said that on the civil side he was opposed to same sex marriage because he then said something about religions. initially tho he was very strong about the constitutional basis for our rights.
Palin Plans to

See... that's the thing. The "cutsie" thing only goes so far with me, and when it comes to being vice president of the United States, that's somewhere behind the start line. No, it wasn't an SNL travesty tonight, but the fact still remains she's the "Harriet Meyers" of this election. She's just not on the same level either in presentation or substance with all the other candidates including all the candidates in the primary on both sides. Harriet Meyers actually knows something about what's going on away from her kitchen table. What was Palin's "selling point?" "Shuckie dern, I ain't got no fancy pants Washington DC larnin', but I got me some good common sense, and gollie gee whiz, Batman, I know I belong to the land, and the land I belong to is grand! So when I saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay WOW! Drill all your woes awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay..."

Substance.
Knowledge.

Plus? I thought she sounded downright snotty and patronizing when she'd lower her voice to just above a whisper, and unroll that "cutsie" face and slow down her tempo to confide some real "dig" that ended up being one without veracity.

So no -- she didn't shoot herself or McCain in the foot, maybe, but standing next to Joe Biden ... really. Can there be any doubt???

maybe. i mean she didnt freeze like she did in the interviews with abc and cbs. and she gave the impression that she knew what she was talking about when answering even if she answering the question that was asked of her. lol. i think she gets cut a lot of slack for being that hockey mom. i hope in the end that people will recognize that hocky moms might be swell pta presidents but not presidents of the us.

thus far my thinking is that she did better than i thought she would. if im not mistaken she even said something about talking directly to the american people and not having it filtered and edited by the media which i assumed was her way of explaining the couric interviews. stil she didnt answer many questions and toward the end when asked what her achilles heel would be as vp managed to ignore that question totally and talk about her strengths. i think that clip will make msnbc for sure:) i thought biden did a good job but thought he could have been a bit more forceful with her. she got away with a few jabs that should have been better responded to.

I wanted that too -- or at least a short response to what had just been said, and it didn't seem the format allowed that.

milo · Veteran Member

Sarah likes to play the woman next door game, I don't see it. I see her walking into the local coffee shop and sitting with her clique, tooooooo goodie good to sit at the counter next to a truck driver from Muleshoe, TX.

I can see Joe, in jeans, down at the local spit 'n whittle, on the bench out front where everyone stops to offer up opinions, jokes and local gossip/news. I don't see him as a guy you can have a beer with, snide smirk, I see him as a guy you might have coffee with.

I can actually imagine Joe in church on Sunday morning but for all the right reasons. I just can't get my mind wrapped around Sarah understanding the 11 th commandment (the 11 th being love thy neighbor as yourself). Sorry, but I see her as exploiting God and the church to serve her agenda. I see her as pushy and self serving.

In the primaries I wanted to vote for Joe, but he had dropped out when the election got down this way. I think the media turned the primaries into a race/sex circus and forgot we were trying to position a candidate to beat the current machine. I think Joe could walk all over McCain and never break a sweat.

John coulda picked anyone off the street and picked wiser, I would have liked him to picked Mitt.

I am off to see what Ron Paul has to say about this damned banking buy off.

MyCat8it · Senior Member

Psych Lit wrote:

maybe. i mean she didnt freeze like she did in the interviews with abc and cbs. and she gave the impression that she knew what she was talking about when answering even if she answering the question that was asked of her. lol. i think she gets cut a lot of slack for being that hockey mom. i hope in the end that people will recognize that hocky moms might be swell pta presidents but not presidents of the us.

thus far my thinking is that she did better than i thought she would. if im not mistaken she even said something about talking directly to the american people and not having it filtered and edited by the media which i assumed was her way of explaining the couric interviews. stil she didnt answer many questions and toward the end when asked what her achilles heel would be as vp managed to ignore that question totally and talk about her strengths. i think that clip will make msnbc for sure:) i thought biden did a good job but thought he could have been a bit more forceful with her. she got away with a few jabs that should have been better responded to.

I've been watching MSNBC all week, and I've heard a number of times, the idea that the media was purposely lowering the public's expectations of Palin for the debate. So, all she had to do was show up and not trip on her way to the podium and she would hit a home run. If she came across as articulate at all, everyone would say, "she did better than expected."

MyCat8it · Senior Member

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

One thing I've been waiting and waiting to happen and hadn't until tonight was someone finally pulling the plug on that "John McCain is a maverick" mantra.

Joe Biden was perfectly situated by position to be the one to do it, and when he did tonight, it was a major exhale moment for me.

I was thinking last night, the debate could have been turned into a great drinking game. Every time someone said the word "Maverick" you need to drink.

I loved it when Biden retorted after about her 10th mention of "the mavericks coming to town."

At times, I felt like she was talking to the camera much in the manner a librarian would read a story to a group of children. I didn't find her likeable at all. I found her condescending, arrogant, and totally dodging direct questions. She redirected questions about health care and responded with taxes. Questions about mortgages were responded to with stories of oil drilling and Alaskan energy.

Would someone please tell me what the world views "a maverick" to be? I can't help but see the little brown 4 door 1976 Maverick my sister used to own. It was a work horse, I'll give you that. The damned thing never died. It puttered around town getting from A to B, not in an altogether rapid or elegant manner, but it got there. I suppose it applies here. *shrug*

Psych Lit · Guru

milo wrote:

BD, I so much agree with you. Those blinded by his well spoken DREAM are not going to see he is an empty suit, until it is way toooooooo late.
as far a being president of the Harvard law review, did he publish any papers while there, all the other presidents did? I give it to him he wrote two books, both very confusing and selfserving.
LMAO and Chicago, what a joke. Has anything changed in south Chicago? Is anyone off welfare, are there any new jobs? Are the children safer from violence? He has no record, just talk, that's all.
I recently was sent a list of Obama co-sponcered bills, lawdy, there was not one orginal bill in the bunch. Every danged one of them was something that is already law. Maybe a law that needs some revamping but none the less already on the books.

my own problem with senator obama is his stated reasons for his quick jobs shifts and that is that he felt frustrated in his efforts to effect change. my thinking is that power is something that by definition must be taken. its not bestowed on someone and if he was not able to grab what he needed in any of those previous jobs there is a good chance that he will not be able to do that as president either. one has to learn the way to get things done. nobody heard any of the other candidates who were senators say that the reason they didnt have a better record was that they were frustrated by the process. but hes got biden and bidens specialty is doing just that. i understand the desire to do a protest vote but heres the thing.

in a month one of these two men will be elected to the presidency despite the protest votes. which of the two better represents the world you would like to see?

im going to vote for obama. not because i think hes swell, in fact ill have to use both hands to feed that sheet of paper into the machine and ill be gritting my teeth the whole time but there is nothing in a mccain presidency that would mean anything more than what weve had for the last 8 years and there is a pretty good chance that he wouldnt make it thru the whole term and almost certainly not another 4 after which would mean sarah would have a darn good chance of becoming the president and that is downright scary.

the way i figure it if mccain becomes president hillary will try again in 4 years. if obama is president and he screws up, hillary will try again in 4 years. if he doesnt screw up those who do will be happy we voted for him. so the question for me is which of the two will do the least harm in those 4 years? id have to give it to obama.

a mccain presidency will mean a draft to fuel the war in iraq which is bleeding this country dry. whats important to him is a decisive victory, something that may never happen and meanwhile we are throwing those billions of dollars in the trash every month and iran is getting stronger and only a couple of years away from nukes, osama is still on the loose, al queda is getting stronger, our ports arent protected, our train stations arent protected, our malls arent protected, our buses arent protected. our chemical plants arent protected and why? no money because its being spent in iraq which had nothing to do with 911.

we spent 10 times more on this war in the last 6 years than we spent on education and that weakens us. two "pillars" of the entire us economy have already fallen. as kucinich stated this is not a credit crisis its a debt crisis. we accepted all of that money from foreign investors and built a giant amway scheme with it inflating the worth of homes and investments and increasing individual families debt to levels that are unsustainable under most circumstances. and now the money is being held back and the pyramid is collapsing. if we keep spending all that money in iraq and adding to the deficit each month soon it will be 3 then 4 pillars and then we will be in the same position that the former soviet union was after the us ramped up military spending and the soviets matched that spending until their economy collapsed.

back right after 911 one of those think tank places said that bin ladens plan was to destroy the us from the inside out and to do that he wanted to engage us in wars all over the globe and destroy us financially. we are doing just that now and while other countries are emerging as world leaders in technology and job creation, the policies of the past 8 years are taking us in the opposite direction. i read not so long ago that the us is not the place foriegn students want to come to anymore. they prefer universities in china and india. while that may raise some yahoos in some arenas it represents a brain drain in the us as many universities will end up closing tech programs since they do not have enough students to populate them and those students will likely stay in either india or china strengthening the technological base of those countries while we produce students who are functionally illiterate without the resources to bring us thru this century

so as long winded as that is, i think your one vote is very important this year and i hope that when you do vote, you cast it for whichever of these two people best represent your views.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Foreshadowing? Guess we'll see if it happens this way.

it sounds as tho this is exactly what happened! one of my pals had the unfortunate timing of having to deliver a lecture earlier this evening. it was scheduled months ago so no way to know that shed be competing foar an audience with the debate. i went with some others to listen so she wouldnt have the experience of lecturing to an empty room. i listened to some of the debate in the car on the way home and when i got home tuned in CNN which had a metered response going on so that people would know how it was playing to the mainstream and im catching the replay now. i expect a different experience seeing the facial and body expressions in total. from what i saw of the metered responses she did well when she talked about whats happening for families and biden did well when he spoke about the last 8 years and iraq. her answer about glbt rights was ignorant tho it towed the party line. shes tolerant? give me a freaking break who wants to be...tolerated. imagine saying that about african americans or hispanics..i tolerate them? yeah that would go over well. and i thought biden was actually gonna go the distance but he backed off and actually made what i think was an error when he said that on the civil side he was opposed to same sex marriage because he then said something about religions. initially tho he was very strong about the constitutional basis for our rights.

Palin Plans to

See... that's the thing. The "cutsie" thing only goes so far with me, and when it comes to being vice president of the United States, that's somewhere behind the start line. No, it wasn't an SNL travesty tonight, but the fact still remains she's the "Harriet Meyers" of this election. She's just not on the same level either in presentation or substance with all the other candidates including all the candidates in the primary on both sides. Harriet Meyers actually knows something about what's going on away from her kitchen table. What was Palin's "selling point?" "Shuckie dern, I ain't got no fancy pants Washington DC larnin', but I got me some good common sense, and gollie gee whiz, Batman, I know I belong to the land, and the land I belong to is grand! So when I saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay WOW! Drill all your woes awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay..."

Substance.
Knowledge.

Plus? I thought she sounded downright snotty and patronizing when she'd lower her voice to just above a whisper, and unroll that "cutsie" face and slow down her tempo to confide some real "dig" that ended up being one without veracity.

So no -- she didn't shoot herself or McCain in the foot, maybe, but standing next to Joe Biden ... really. Can there be any doubt???

maybe. i mean she didnt freeze like she did in the interviews with abc and cbs. and she gave the impression that she knew what she was talking about when answering even if she answering the question that was asked of her. lol. i think she gets cut a lot of slack for being that hockey mom. i hope in the end that people will recognize that hocky moms might be swell pta presidents but not presidents of the us.

thus far my thinking is that she did better than i thought she would. if im not mistaken she even said something about talking directly to the american people and not having it filtered and edited by the media which i assumed was her way of explaining the couric interviews. stil she didnt answer many questions and toward the end when asked what her achilles heel would be as vp managed to ignore that question totally and talk about her strengths. i think that clip will make msnbc for sure:) i thought biden did a good job but thought he could have been a bit more forceful with her. she got away with a few jabs that should have been better responded to.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

One thing I've been waiting and waiting to happen and hadn't until tonight was someone finally pulling the plug on that "John McCain is a maverick" mantra.

Joe Biden was perfectly situated by position to be the one to do it, and when he did tonight, it was a major exhale moment for me.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

milo wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Foreshadowing? Guess we'll see if it happens this way.
Palin Plans to Attack Biden in Debate
By Mike Allen
ST. LOUIS (Oct. 2) -- Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonights debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonights showdown.
The Palin camp is projecting surprising self-confidence in the pre-debate hours, despite the vice presidential nominees uneven and, at some points, peculiar performances in recent television interviews, the officials say. Top advisers to John McCain privately say Palins recent CBS interview was a borderline disaster, especially since it played out in several segments over several days. Tonight will be different, they say.
This is going to finally put her back into a position where we see her like we saw her the first couple weeks, a McCain official said. She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. ... Tonight, shell get into a rhythm. Youre going to see her in a way that you havent seen her yet.
By contrast, Biden plans what an aide calls "a just-the-facts, prosecutorial approach laying out the case against McCain and defending Obama." The aide said Biden will be "keeping the eye on the target, which is McCain."
It is hard to imagine higher stakes for a vice presidential nominee on the national stage. Palin wowed even her biggest skeptics with her spirited introduction to the American people at the Republican National Convention last month. Its been downhill since then, however. She has been largely sheltered from unscripted moments on the campaign trail. And, when she has exposed herself to improvisation or tough questioning, Palin has been criticized for offering vague and at times unusual responses.
Palin advisers say that she remains just as popular with much of the Republican base as she was a month ago when her convention speech was hailed as a home run. But her ratings have eroded in polls since then, and the advisers see the 90-minute debate at 9 p.m. Eastern as a chance for a swift turnaround from what they call negativity in her news coverage.

From her debate playbook, as described by McCain officials:
Throw Bidens own words back at him.
Theres going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Bidens words against him
and not his gaffes, an official said. When he says raising taxes is patriotic, thats a policy position. Thats what he believes. Shes going to use those against him.

(On ABCs Good Morning America last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.)

Highlight past Biden foreign-policy positions as a way to undermine his core strength.

Hes a celebrated foreign policy expert, but he has been wrong dating back to the Reagan administration, the official said. There are opportunities there for her to jump in.

One example that was provided was Bidens reference to North Korea as a paper tiger on CBSs The Early Show in 2006. (I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.)
Another example noted by the campaign was voting for defense cuts during the Reagan administration, and voting against the first Gulf war in 1991. (PolitiFact.com points out that he voted with the majority of Senate Democrats on the resolution.)
Highlight places where Biden and Barack Obama have differed, including primary-season statements about Obamas readiness to lead and his positions on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.
He voted for the Iraq war, and Obama said that was poor judgment, the official. There are a lot of wedge positions between Obama and Biden.
Portray herself as a working mom and outsider who's been in the real-world, rather than being shielded in the bluster of Washington.
McCain officials say they are optimistic despite her falling credibility and likability in polls.
Nobody whos in the middle of a campaign takes a minute to panic, an aide said. Every single day, theres an ebb and flow thats what makes these things exciting. Shes been there before. Shes done this before. Shes been successful. And we as a campaign expect she will rise to the occasion and be strong. (end of news article)

I don't really care how she comes off, if she stepped up and was eloquent as a seasoned diplomat, the fact she can't leave her religious beliefs at the door bothers me.

Her human rights stance bothers me, she has no more idea what is going on with wall street then I do, she has no idea about the middle east. I am as qualified as Sarah to be veep, that ought to scare the 'ell outta America if nothing else does.

See... that's the thing. The "cutsie" thing only goes so far with me, and when it comes to being vice president of the United States, that's somewhere behind the start line. No, it wasn't an SNL travesty tonight, but the fact still remains she's the "Harriet Meyers" of this election. She's just not on the same level either in presentation or substance with all the other candidates including all the candidates in the primary on both sides. Harriet Meyers actually knows something about what's going on away from her kitchen table. What was Palin's "selling point?" "Shuckie dern, I ain't got no fancy pants Washington DC larnin', but I got me some good common sense, and gollie gee whiz, Batman, I know I belong to the land, and the land I belong to is grand! So when I saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay WOW! Drill all your woes awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay..."

Substance.
Knowledge.

Plus? I thought she sounded downright snotty and patronizing when she'd lower her voice to just above a whisper, and unroll that "cutsie" face and slow down her tempo to confide some real "dig" that ended up being one without veracity.

So no -- she didn't shoot herself or McCain in the foot, maybe, but standing next to Joe Biden ... really. Can there be any doubt???

milo · Veteran Member

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Foreshadowing? Guess we'll see if it happens this way.
Palin Plans to Attack Biden in Debate
By Mike Allen
ST. LOUIS (Oct. 2) -- Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonights debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonights showdown.
The Palin camp is projecting surprising self-confidence in the pre-debate hours, despite the vice presidential nominees uneven and, at some points, peculiar performances in recent television interviews, the officials say. Top advisers to John McCain privately say Palins recent CBS interview was a borderline disaster, especially since it played out in several segments over several days. Tonight will be different, they say.
This is going to finally put her back into a position where we see her like we saw her the first couple weeks, a McCain official said. She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. ... Tonight, shell get into a rhythm. Youre going to see her in a way that you havent seen her yet.
By contrast, Biden plans what an aide calls "a just-the-facts, prosecutorial approach laying out the case against McCain and defending Obama." The aide said Biden will be "keeping the eye on the target, which is McCain."
It is hard to imagine higher stakes for a vice presidential nominee on the national stage. Palin wowed even her biggest skeptics with her spirited introduction to the American people at the Republican National Convention last month. Its been downhill since then, however. She has been largely sheltered from unscripted moments on the campaign trail. And, when she has exposed herself to improvisation or tough questioning, Palin has been criticized for offering vague and at times unusual responses.
Palin advisers say that she remains just as popular with much of the Republican base as she was a month ago when her convention speech was hailed as a home run. But her ratings have eroded in polls since then, and the advisers see the 90-minute debate at 9 p.m. Eastern as a chance for a swift turnaround from what they call negativity in her news coverage.

From her debate playbook, as described by McCain officials:
Throw Bidens own words back at him.
Theres going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Bidens words against him
and not his gaffes, an official said. When he says raising taxes is patriotic, thats a policy position. Thats what he believes. Shes going to use those against him.

(On ABCs Good Morning America last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.)

Highlight past Biden foreign-policy positions as a way to undermine his core strength.

Hes a celebrated foreign policy expert, but he has been wrong dating back to the Reagan administration, the official said. There are opportunities there for her to jump in.

One example that was provided was Bidens reference to North Korea as a paper tiger on CBSs The Early Show in 2006. (I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.)
Another example noted by the campaign was voting for defense cuts during the Reagan administration, and voting against the first Gulf war in 1991. (PolitiFact.com points out that he voted with the majority of Senate Democrats on the resolution.)
Highlight places where Biden and Barack Obama have differed, including primary-season statements about Obamas readiness to lead and his positions on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.
He voted for the Iraq war, and Obama said that was poor judgment, the official. There are a lot of wedge positions between Obama and Biden.
Portray herself as a working mom and outsider who's been in the real-world, rather than being shielded in the bluster of Washington.
McCain officials say they are optimistic despite her falling credibility and likability in polls.
Nobody whos in the middle of a campaign takes a minute to panic, an aide said. Every single day, theres an ebb and flow thats what makes these things exciting. Shes been there before. Shes done this before. Shes been successful. And we as a campaign expect she will rise to the occasion and be strong. (end of news article)

I don't really care how she comes off, if she stepped up and was eloquent as a seasoned diplomat, the fact she can't leave her religious beliefs at the door bothers me.

Her human rights stance bothers me, she has no more idea what is going on with wall street then I do, she has no idea about the middle east. I am as qualified as Sarah to be veep, that ought to scare the 'ell outta America if nothing else does.

LMAO I got mail today from <grin> John McCain, he wanted my opinion! LOL he got it.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Foreshadowing? Guess we'll see if it happens this way.

Palin Plans to Attack Biden in Debate

By Mike Allen

ST. LOUIS (Oct. 2) -- Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonights debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonights showdown.

The Palin camp is projecting surprising self-confidence in the pre-debate hours, despite the vice presidential nominees uneven and, at some points, peculiar performances in recent television interviews, the officials say. Top advisers to John McCain privately say Palins recent CBS interview was a borderline disaster, especially since it played out in several segments over several days. Tonight will be different, they say.

This is going to finally put her back into a position where we see her like we saw her the first couple weeks, a McCain official said. She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. ... Tonight, shell get into a rhythm. Youre going to see her in a way that you havent seen her yet.

By contrast, Biden plans what an aide calls "a just-the-facts, prosecutorial approach laying out the case against McCain and defending Obama." The aide said Biden will be "keeping the eye on the target, which is McCain."

It is hard to imagine higher stakes for a vice presidential nominee on the national stage. Palin wowed even her biggest skeptics with her spirited introduction to the American people at the Republican National Convention last month. Its been downhill since then, however. She has been largely sheltered from unscripted moments on the campaign trail. And, when she has exposed herself to improvisation or tough questioning, Palin has been criticized for offering vague and at times unusual responses.

Palin advisers say that she remains just as popular with much of the Republican base as she was a month ago when her convention speech was hailed as a home run. But her ratings have eroded in polls since then, and the advisers see the 90-minute debate at 9 p.m. Eastern as a chance for a swift turnaround from what they call negativity in her news coverage.

From her debate playbook, as described by McCain officials:

Throw Bidens own words back at him.

Theres going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Bidens words against him
and not his gaffes, an official said. When he says raising taxes is patriotic, thats a policy position. Thats what he believes. Shes going to use those against him.

(On ABCs Good Morning America last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.)

Highlight past Biden foreign-policy positions as a way to undermine his core strength.

Hes a celebrated foreign policy expert, but he has been wrong dating back to the Reagan administration, the official said. There are opportunities there for her to jump in.

One example that was provided was Bidens reference to North Korea as a paper tiger on CBSs The Early Show in 2006. (I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.)

Another example noted by the campaign was voting for defense cuts during the Reagan administration, and voting against the first Gulf war in 1991. (PolitiFact.com points out that he voted with the majority of Senate Democrats on the resolution.)

Highlight places where Biden and Barack Obama have differed, including primary-season statements about Obamas readiness to lead and his positions on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

He voted for the Iraq war, and Obama said that was poor judgment, the official. There are a lot of wedge positions between Obama and Biden.

Portray herself as a working mom and outsider who's been in the real-world, rather than being shielded in the bluster of Washington.

McCain officials say they are optimistic despite her falling credibility and likability in polls.

Nobody whos in the middle of a campaign takes a minute to panic, an aide said. Every single day, theres an ebb and flow thats what makes these things exciting. Shes been there before. Shes done this before. Shes been successful. And we as a campaign expect she will rise to the occasion and be strong. (end of news article)

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

One of (for me, anyway) the creepier aspects of this "Debate Camp" for Palin is that it's so reminscent of when Shrub was in the Governor's mansion in TX, and all the neocons went down there and "taught" him the ropes ... Cheney and Rumsfeld were there, as were others, and they taught him what to say, and how to think, just the way they do.

And during the last week, the head honchos from Bush's 2004 campaign are there doing the same with Sarah Palin.

I don't think there will be any "gotcha" moments tonight, as much fun as that might be. I don't think Palin will be saying: "Who am I? Why am I here?" or anything like that. She's been cramming like mad -- and given the free time to cram, for what I'm sure the McCain camp considers to be her final exam.

The problem is, it's not. It's just the "final" for getting elected, but not for actually serving, and it does seem so transparent to me that the McCain camp doesn't care about that -- they don't seem to care that she's really unqualified to hold the second highest elective office in the land. They just care, it seems, about getting her through tonight without any MAJOR screw ups, and then, I imagne she'll go back to the stump speech they (again -- Bush's former staff -- the same who wrote her convention speech) prepared for her, and she'll do her little "queen wave" thing, and that'll be it.

This isn't a test of or for Biden or Palin, Obama or McCain -- this is a test of and for the American people.

No Nation Left Behind

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

EVEN THOUGH IT'S A SCHOOL NIGHT .....

... I sure would love to be invited to a slumber party at Lorne Michael's house tomorrow night ....

wouldnt that be a kick? i read tonight that dana carvey is reprising the church lady in his act as a tribute to sarah. he sees a lot of similarities.

two hours ....

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

EVEN THOUGH IT'S A SCHOOL NIGHT .....

... I sure would love to be invited to a slumber party at Lorne Michael's house tomorrow night ....

wouldnt that be a kick? i read tonight that dana carvey is reprising the church lady in his act as a tribute to sarah. he sees a lot of similarities.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

EVEN THOUGH IT'S A SCHOOL NIGHT .....

... I sure would love to be invited to a slumber party at Lorne Michael's house tomorrow night ....

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

BoxDog wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

how many cars did you say you had??

hee. maybe i can turn into the mad bumper sticker person who randomly attaches hillary 2012 stickers to cars in parking lots!

Just be considerate and do it on the glass, not the paint. Yanno, if we don't like it a boxcutter will scrape it right off. Now a new paint job to cover up a bad bumper sticker? That's just wrong. The glass, it's fair game. Actually, when the Tracker was "parked" on crack street, for that month or two I considered putting a McCain AND an Obama sticker, just as a precaution. While the car "screamed" democrat, it also "screamed" Hillary. It's just an angry little car. Always screaming in the end.

Hey! I know that vehicle! 2007 AOL Cruiser, right?

omg. you are referring to the CAR, right?

Car? What ca---- oh yeah.
Right.
Yes.
I was.
Of course I was.

wink

BoxDog · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

how many cars did you say you had??

hee. maybe i can turn into the mad bumper sticker person who randomly attaches hillary 2012 stickers to cars in parking lots!

Just be considerate and do it on the glass, not the paint. Yanno, if we don't like it a boxcutter will scrape it right off. Now a new paint job to cover up a bad bumper sticker? That's just wrong. The glass, it's fair game. Actually, when the Tracker was "parked" on crack street, for that month or two I considered putting a McCain AND an Obama sticker, just as a precaution. While the car "screamed" democrat, it also "screamed" Hillary. It's just an angry little car. Always screaming in the end.

Hey! I know that vehicle! 2007 AOL Cruiser, right?

omg. you are referring to the CAR, right?

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

how many cars did you say you had??

hee. maybe i can turn into the mad bumper sticker person who randomly attaches hillary 2012 stickers to cars in parking lots!

Just be considerate and do it on the glass, not the paint. Yanno, if we don't like it a boxcutter will scrape it right off. Now a new paint job to cover up a bad bumper sticker? That's just wrong. The glass, it's fair game. Actually, when the Tracker was "parked" on crack street, for that month or two I considered putting a McCain AND an Obama sticker, just as a precaution. While the car "screamed" democrat, it also "screamed" Hillary. It's just an angry little car. Always screaming in the end.

Hey! I know that vehicle! 2007 AOL Cruiser, right?

BoxDog · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

how many cars did you say you had??

hee. maybe i can turn into the mad bumper sticker person who randomly attaches hillary 2012 stickers to cars in parking lots!

Just be considerate and do it on the glass, not the paint. Yanno, if we don't like it a boxcutter will scrape it right off. Now a new paint job to cover up a bad bumper sticker? That's just wrong. The glass, it's fair game. Actually, when the Tracker was "parked" on crack street, for that month or two I considered putting a McCain AND an Obama sticker, just as a precaution. While the car "screamed" democrat, it also "screamed" Hillary. It's just an angry little car. Always screaming in the end.

Psych Lit · Guru

I know (or maybe hope) Psych said that as a joke but it really isn't funny. I would simply make someone remove it, if I caught them. I do know people who would hurt someone for messing with their car.