Hunh.



Well? I just watched some YOU TUBE recordings of Bill O'Reilly's reporting on the assassination of Dr. Tiller. Watched until I could no more.

Apparently, the man has never heard the admonition about speaking ill of the dead.

Apparently, it is not Dr. Tiller (or, as O'Reilly called him "Dr. Killer") who is the victim here, but rather Bill O'Reilly.

Yup.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right.

Anonymous wrote:

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nesea wrote:

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And, the way you feel should be. <~ gator

the way I feel should be ??  should be ... what? .. judged? I think I managed to miss the message entirely lol .. but then that's always been a problem for me.

<~ nesea

the beautiful things about this place (for me anyways) is being able to give voice to strong feelings without being (or at least feeling) judged.

the way you feel should be a beautiful things (for you anyways) just as you first said.  gotcha '

Ya know what ... I'm gonna over step my bounds here and stick my nose where it doesn't belong (lol, yep, this is my "i'm about to be a busybody disclaimer:) which may be dangerous b/c I don't know the extent, if any, of history between anyone here.

So here goes ... Gator, I think once you go on your trip and allow all these bits and pieces of conversations to fall away into the nothingness .your opinion (most definitely my opinion only and meant to convey the overall tiny-ness of a difference of opinion among friends) they came out of, you'll find yourself wondering why you felt the need to leave in the first place. I predict you'll miss the friendships you've made here with women you admire. Anyone reading can, and probably has, noticed the warmth shared between all of you here. I know I have.

Sometimes our real time lives fill us with frustrations and stressors that end up coming out sideways, and we find ourselves engaging in ways that we never intended.
I have no problem with my intent if you are making judgements of me. Seems those who are always hollering that they are being judged are the ones doing it the most. No judgements, just saying sometime conversations have a way taking on a life of their own .. and without inflection and tone and expression to convey everything we feel, sometimes they veer into areas we never intended. Heck, a lot of this conversation is revolving around topics you all pretty much agree on!

Go on your trip, have fun ... don't dwell on any of this, let your spirit renew .. and maybe, just maybe ... when you come back and open this board you'll find yourself once again among friends you want to share thoughts, ideas and garden pics with.

I hope you aren't offended by any of the things I've said, it certainly wasn't my intent. Life is short, friends are precious .. we should never be casual or cavalier with either.      And, I have been neither. Take care and I hope to see you again soon ......Thanks....................you too. Gator

nesea

 

-- Edited by nesea on Saturday 6th of June 2009 11:55:09 AM

 

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I know this issue is one that is close to your heart, as it is for many here. We have all made personal decisions, taken stances and held opinions that were influenced by our circumstance.  I don't presume to judge anyone esp since I can't know from what circumstance they speak. 



 

 

Psych Lit wrote:

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  i am not pro abortion but i am pro choice


Same here.


i dont think anyone thinks late term abortions are a good thing.

I don't either.


i know i certainly i dont. they are less than 1 percent of all abortions tho and while that is still too high id like to see better pre natal care offered to women so these high risk incidents might be fewer.   i do think is that there has to be an option allowing for a late term abortion when the mothers life is at risk. i cant imagine letting a woman die under these circumstances.  that being said id like to see these performed in ways that allow the fetus, if viable, to survive.  im not a physician so i dont know if that is possible but it would seem to be likely in an era where 1lb babies routinely survive.

Yup. Thanks for saying this.

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Anonymous wrote:

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My intent was not to be rude and leave anyone hanging as accused
------------------------

I said:

"You posted what seemed to be a pointedly vague post about leaving here. SEVERAL of us asked you point blank why you were leaving, but you opted not to reply."


Not exactly the same thing.

nesea wrote:

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I've been unable to get here for a few days ... so I'm a bit confused about what happened. I do know, one of the beautiful things about this place (for me anyways) is being able to give voice to strong feelings without being (or at least feeling) judged. Besides, you're a resident, a local, part and parcel of this little space ... 

soooooo,  you can checkout any time you like, but you can never leave :) 
And, the way you feel should be. I'm not an Eagles fan but, I do recollect the lyric. I think. lol My intent was not to be rude and leave anyone hanging as accused but, further would only confuse things more.QQ with special attention to Cat ;) So, consider this very well wishes and, all personally addressed
except , My Turn and, not sure if the Hmmmmmmmmmmmm was for me to respond to but, I am going to anyway and, say back at ya and that lovely evocative pose in the swim suit. lol Gator who loves long good byes

 

 

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MyCat8it wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Firstly, I want to say I appreciate being able to come here and, post a bit with you all in an environment where even if there is disagreement, it doesn't get vile and dangerous. And, before I overstay the welcome I am saying goodbye. I have especially appreciated the civility with you BD. I do want to ask those of you who have close, even if past ,interpersonal relations with people who are capable of making light of Aids...........Rape and death of women who come to boards to commune with other lesbians to consider atoning by reporting the abuse.  You have the knowledge and, the power as to  how one such person is able to manipulate an on line community seemingly public yet hacked by this evil. . And, I would not have come here in the first place if I had not decided that your own behaviors or complacency was due to being manipulated or fearful of the personal experience you had with such a person. I believe the human spirt is that of love and light and, even when when mis step slightly we recover. But, those inheiratly evil to be allowed to do deeds beyond acceptable societal behavior just because we may not care or like the person they are directing it to is a might as well be me mentality. Love and peace to you all................................even you bi girls here. lol Gator

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im confused. where are ya goin and why?

 

 

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I'm confused, too.  I was just getting to know and dig Gator.  Was it something we said?

 

---

It was absolutly nothing you said. I really spend too much time with much ado about nothing and, more the reason.  I do find it uncomfortable when  certain "tones" are only taken on certain individuals ........... yet I am totally noting those disagreements are allowed. And, I find myself holding back in pointing out those ocassions when welfare recipients for example or, another when I posted about who are the homeless and drunks negatively presented are.  Words do incite and, I have seen harsh ones held up against mine with less response. I don't care if anyone here wants to liken me with an interpersonal glitch but, how un fair it may feel for me does not compare to how I feel knowing my words are tempered enough for anyone to disagree and, build a unifying tone and none of my words were tossed in a mannor that incites or balnkets anyone. And, I know you did not address me directly Cat but, I dug you too. I have a trip planned and just decided not to come back after. Gator

Anonymous wrote:

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---

How did you extract from my post that I'm not in almost lock step with how you feel?
And, that has been coming and, that is why a debate can not happen. And, it is not me you should be blaming that on.

just gonna make one comment here about conflict. its not the conflict that is the problem its more the hows of it. id hate to live in a world where people had to agree and therefore think theres nothing wrong with holding opinions that are not popular with others. where conflict becomes difficult for me is when the poopy head stuff starts which id like to say isnt happening here as far as i can see. sometimes it feels as tho when people disagree on topics that there is a feeling that there is a mainstream view here and that its not ok to feel that way.  as you say these are not black and white issues and good people can be found on both sides of this issue.


It is not black and white. Little by little you have shown that it is here and, that anyone who wishes to open the window where it is beyond a woman's autonomy when late term abortion is considered will be categorized as a non supporter of women who are faced with the choice of abortion. Not that I don't like to debate but, I do not care to be mis represented and, if you care to read below and, more than you my view does not matter over a womans right to choose and, again as I said I hope one day the right to choose does not include late term abortion. Not that I like the notion at all when it is only a matter of selfishness and, total disregard for the consiquence. But, like you many don't care what people like me think and, that is what makes the world so ugly at times. Thank God you don't support a racist, chauvanists system cause God knows even though you can wrap it as political disagreement with your contemporary here, I viewed her as a shinning example of that very system you mention. Gator

im not thinking that this is the case here. my thoughts on abortion are probably more conservative than most peoples. i am not pro abortion but i am pro choice and if i am reading you right not very far off from your own thinking.   i dont think anyone thinks late term abortions are a good thing. i know i certainly i dont. they are less than 1 percent of all abortions tho and while that is still too high id like to see better pre natal care offered to women so these high risk incidents might be fewer.   i do think is that there has to be an option allowing for a late term abortion when the mothers life is at risk. i cant imagine letting a woman die under these circumstances.  that being said id like to see these performed in ways that allow the fetus, if viable, to survive.  im not a physician so i dont know if that is possible but it would seem to be likely in an era where 1lb babies routinely survive.

 

 

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Anonymous wrote:

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 I've seen and, experienced enough on the issue to keep my conviction for the rest of my life. Like holding some love ones in my arms as they died and, knowing life is eternal even though the form of the human body I was use to seeing them in was gone.

LOTS of us have held people in our arms as they died, Gator.

But, people are not open to the in between s of all that keeps us apart. And, even though your views reflect a closer aspect that enables you the proclaim your pro abortion I would wager with you that I have shielded more women who were facing abortion from those violent entities I have been posting about than you have.

And I would wager YOU'VE never, at the ripe old age of SIXTEEN held a woman in YOUR arms dying, hemmoraging, and bleeding to death from a botched abortion, because she could not legally obtain one in this country, but I have, and I'll bet YOU didn't deal with women who were raped in the early seventies, and were barred from treatment in hospitals, or who had to, IF they were brave, enough to report the rape, have to retell the story MINIMALLY THREE TIMES to three different police officers -- usually men, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, without, again, getting medical treatment, because hospitals didn't "deal with" rape victims, but I have, and I promise you, Gator, I will do what ever it takes to keep the choice of abortion safe and legal for young women who MAY opt to make that choice, because I don't support a racist, chauvanistic system which denies a woman autonomy over her own body, so maybe that makes me ALMOST as worthy of having an opinion on this issue as do you, if we need to put our creds on the table.  


 I'm leaving because, I feel conflict may be coming and, I do not have any use for it except, when it is environmentally situational where results and, change can actually occur.  Gator

 

So, what, you don't catch it, you're just a carrier?

That's how you want it? Okfine with me. Can't and wouldn't speak for anyone else, but if you aren't willing to throw something out for debate, and then stick around FOR the debate, then I'm not gonna bar the door and try to lock you in.

BD are just about as far apart as two people can be, politically. We both get NERVOUS when we find ourselves in agreement about an issue. We have heated debates all the time, and at the end of the day, we still care about one another, and are there for each other.

If that's not the kind of online interaction you want, then that's of course your choice.  

Happy trails.

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Anonymous wrote:

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trying this again and lord knows what happened with the last one i posted..................

 

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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Look: you disagree with the Pro-Choice stance, then disagree, but don't LEAVE because of it!

Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

---

 

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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You know, there are people publicly celebrating this assassination right now.
Not even being coy about it.
Festive victory parties.

---

i read a few things on this today that were alarming. one was that he was one of three physicians in the us who would perform late term abortions. i wonder if that includes private physicians or not? and in that same article was a comment that most of the other providers over the years have also been assassinated. i dont get how someone can reconcile this action with a pro life stance.  

 

 

---

I have been peturbed all day about this and such. Celebrating a death / grave dancing is the sickest form of human existance. Owl, you mentioned aol on a post here the other and, even there on a womens board I have witnessed the behavior. I love the far left because, I truely believe it leads by a more non violent nature than the far right but, why do we never speak out within our own (as with the aol board when women approved of grave dancing and violent behavior suggested in words)

Gator -- the "celebrations to which I referred weren't (to my knowledge) on AOL board -- they were on a completely different thing, and I DID speak out ... HAVE BEEN speaking out, for HOURS the last two days about that very thing on that board.  




on even the seemingly smallest of examples when? Or why attack those who agree as we do that those radicals most visable in the operation rescue / anti abortion  and anti gay incite knowing there will be these unknowns listening to them that act in violent ways? Just because they are against late term abortion?

Bill O'Reilly attacked Dr. Tiller BY NAME 28 times on his show. "Tiller the baby killer." He said:

"if the state of Kansas doesn't stop this man, then anybody who prevents that from happening has blood on their hands"


Roe / Wade is too broad. Hear me. I did not say overturned but, certainly tweaked. There is a common ground. Peaceful disagreement. And, no one has found it necessary to embrace it. I've yet to see it in the smallest of example.

Look: you disagree with the Pro-Choice stance, then disagree, but don't LEAVE because of it!



Like I said. Women to women on a aol message board talked of things we all seem to voice disapproval on broadly but, sit on it otherwise. Gator

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Psych Lit wrote:

---

 

Anonymous wrote:

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---

Firstly, I want to say I appreciate being able to come here and, post a bit with you all in an environment where even if there is disagreement, it doesn't get vile and dangerous. And, before I overstay the welcome I am saying goodbye. I have especially appreciated the civility with you BD. I do want to ask those of you who have close, even if past ,interpersonal relations with people who are capable of making light of Aids...........Rape and death of women who come to boards to commune with other lesbians to consider atoning by reporting the abuse.  You have the knowledge and, the power as to  how one such person is able to manipulate an on line community seemingly public yet hacked by this evil. . And, I would not have come here in the first place if I had not decided that your own behaviors or complacency was due to being manipulated or fearful of the personal experience you had with such a person. I believe the human spirt is that of love and light and, even when when mis step slightly we recover. But, those inheiratly evil to be allowed to do deeds beyond acceptable societal behavior just because we may not care or like the person they are directing it to is a might as well be me mentality. Love and peace to you all................................even you bi girls here. lol Gator

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im confused. where are ya goin and why?

 

 

---

I'm confused, too.  I was just getting to know and dig Gator.  Was it something we said?

Anonymous wrote:

---

Firstly, I want to say I appreciate being able to come here and, post a bit with you all in an environment where even if there is disagreement, it doesn't get vile and dangerous. And, before I overstay the welcome I am saying goodbye. I have especially appreciated the civility with you BD. I do want to ask those of you who have close, even if past ,interpersonal relations with people who are capable of making light of Aids...........Rape and death of women who come to boards to commune with other lesbians to consider atoning by reporting the abuse.  You have the knowledge and, the power as to  how one such person is able to manipulate an on line community seemingly public yet hacked by this evil. . And, I would not have come here in the first place if I had not decided that your own behaviors or complacency was due to being manipulated or fearful of the personal experience you had with such a person. I believe the human spirt is that of love and light and, even when when mis step slightly we recover. But, those inheiratly evil to be allowed to do deeds beyond acceptable societal behavior just because we may not care or like the person they are directing it to is a might as well be me mentality. Love and peace to you all................................even you bi girls here. lol Gator

 

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Psych Lit wrote:

---

 

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

---

You know, there are people publicly celebrating this assassination right now.
Not even being coy about it.
Festive victory parties.

---

i read a few things on this today that were alarming. one was that he was one of three physicians in the us who would perform late term abortions. i wonder if that includes private physicians or not? and in that same article was a comment that most of the other providers over the years have also been assassinated. i dont get how someone can reconcile this action with a pro life stance.  

 

 

---

I have been peturbed all day about this and such. Celebrating a death / grave dancing is the sickest form of human existance. Owl, you mentioned aol on a post here the other and, even there on a womens board I have witnessed the behavior. I love the far left because, I truely believe it leads by a more non violent nature than the far right but, why do we never speak out within our own (as with the aol board when women approved of grave dancing and violent behavior suggested in words) on even the seemingly smallest of examples when? Or why attack those who agree as we do that those radicals most visable in the operation rescue / anti abortion  and anti gay incite knowing there will be these unknowns listening to them that act in violent ways? Just because they are against late term abortion? Roe / Wade is too broad. Hear me. I did not say overturned but, certainly tweaked. There is a common ground. Peaceful disagreement. And, no one has found it necessary to embrace it. I've yet to see it in the smallest of example. Like I said. Women to women on a aol message board talked of things we all seem to voice disapproval on broadly but, sit on it otherwise. Gator

New York Times best-selling author

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Stop Supporting The OReilly Harassment Machine

On Saturday, March 21, Fox News Bill OReilly sent one of his producers to stalk, harass, and ambush ThinkProgress.orgs managing editor Amanda Terkel. Upset over a ThinkProgress report that noted OReillys insensitivity to rape, OReilly sent two men to track Amanda in a car for two hours, and then confronted her with hostile questions while she was on vacation.

Sadly, Amanda is just one of at least 40 different victims of OReillys Harassment Machine. OReilly has hired producers whose job is to track, harass, and intimidate anyone whom OReilly perceives as an opponent. Thats not journalism thats a mafia-style operation. And we need to put an end to it.

Tell OReillys advertisers that you want them to issue a clear statement explaining their opposition to OReillys ambush journalism. Fill out the form below to tell OReillys corporate advertisers to stop supporting the OReilly Harassment Machine, and e-mail us if you receive any responses.

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NOTE: When you fill out this form and send your message, your comment will be sent to ALL of Bill OReillys leading corporate sponsors. The sponsors are noted by their trademark above.

UPDATE: We will update you on the responses we receive from OReillys corporate sponsors here.

UPDATE II: Watch OReillys Harassment Machine in action:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-LwY5rtefo



I'm not on board with stripping OReilly of his First Amend rights.Just as I wish to keep mine. OReilly, Olbermann, Schlessinger, Coulter, crazy Lincoln lady Doris, none of them are MAKING people kill, maim or hate. We have got to be responsible for our own decisions and paths.  After all, he made a point regarding gay versus straight really doesn't matter when you're discussing a talent show. As did the other two FOX contributors.  At 2:25 he says it, if he's the best, then he should win, period. And folks, that's a whole lot more than we heard from the potus on this American Idol pop culture phenom.  Odd, huh? The "old, white, right wingnut" speaking out in defense of Lamberts ambiguity as it related to this talent show. If one were inclined to keep an eye on the radical pundits I would suggest Sean Hannity on the right and Olbermann on the left. IMO? They're both freaking nuts. Besides, as I always say, if you don't have access to what the "other" sides are saying? You simply create silent haters. There's limited defense to that and the gods know we have enough silent haters on enough current events. Let's not strive to add more. Terri

 

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I don't know about idol or his comments otherwise because Fox and, any affiliate is not on in my home. I learned enough about them now to only be interested in how they are still the same in the hateful inciting way. You may be interested to know that there are hundreds of other times and, I am certain to happen again where Bill Oreilly suggest violence toward gays. Here is one that suggest actions that leave someone who affends him un able to ever protest again. I took it to mean murder as well as those who posted this on you tube. Oh and, he based his opinion on visuals without ever doing a "fair and balanced report on the nuns or the work they do. Besides, he has not earned the right to use terms such as "sissies. pansies and panty wearing men". Last time I checked, it was fairly universal in the gay community that he is not fair or balanced. I don't get how you can use one of only of a handful of times he appears to support any minority, when the loads of other times show how dangeriouos his views and temper is. I'll save how he treats women for another day;) Gator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91H1h9GmjN8

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

---

You know, there are people publicly celebrating this assassination right now.
Not even being coy about it.
Festive victory parties.

---

... and the gods know we have enough silent haters on enough current events. Let's not strive to add more. Terri--------

--------------------

"...In this decade, the NAF says on its Web site, abortion-clinic bombings, arsons and attempts declined dramatically compared with the 1990s. From 2000 to 2007, there were 16 such acts; in the 1990s, there were 120, including two individual years with more than 16.

Eight people - four doctors, three clinic workers and a policeman - have been killed by abortion opponents since the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, all before Dr. Tiller's death occurring from 1993 to 1998.

Dr. Tiller was shot in both arms in 1993 by a protester and survived a 1985 bombing of his clinic."

Rest of article at:
Washington Times - Kansas abortion doctor killed during church


The reason the numbers dropped is probably because Clinton made it a federal offense to mess with family planning clinics. Even so, there have been arsons, bombings, ACID thrown, and murder. Murders.

I'm getting tired of being patient and polite.  


"I stand at the altar of murdered men, and while I live, I fight their cause!" -- yeah, "Florence Nightingale"

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

---

 

---

If there is a cause and effect, it clearly points to Fox news allowing the horrible instigating rhetoric Bill O'reilly has directed toward this doctor on so many occasions (April most recent) with words considered dangerously leading. And, those that prop up an institution such as Fox that condones such deplorable behavior. Reaching out to those that view things differently as opposed to supporting violent idealology is not the same. Gator

 

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So how do we amend this, without impeding upon First Amendment rights? Brash, loudmouthed, obnoxious pundits on BOTH sides is the order of the day, and is apparently what the American people want, since they continue to support it. 

In this age of electronic media, where not only sane and discerning people, but also criminally insane, simmering, just waiting to boil over are reached with equal ease, are new rules finally required? Should the stipulations regarding inciting riots be expanded? I know the boycott of Dr. Laura, and her advertisers worked several years back, but I'm not sure that would be the case today. Whereas you and I can easily surmises a cause and effect connection here, I don't know that we could substantiate it legally, and it seems pretty clear there's not much self governing going on in the media right now.  

 

 

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

---

If there is a cause and effect, it clearly points to Fox news allowing the horrible instigating rhetoric Bill O'reilly has directed toward this doctor on so many occasions (April most recent) with words considered dangerously leading. And, those that prop up an institution such as Fox that condones such deplorable behavior. Reaching out to those that view things differently as opposed to supporting violent idealology is not the same. Gator

 

---

So how do we amend this, without impeding upon First Amendment rights? Brash, loudmouthed, obnoxious pundits on BOTH sides is the order of the day, and is apparently what the American people want, since they continue to support it. 

In this age of electronic media, where not only sane and discerning people, but also criminally insane, simmering, just waiting to boil over are reached with equal ease, are new rules finally required? Should the stipulations regarding inciting riots be expanded? I know the boycott of Dr. Laura, and her advertisers worked several years back, but I'm not sure that would be the case today. Whereas you and I can easily surmises a cause and effect connection here, I don't know that we could substantiate it legally, and it seems pretty clear there's not much self governing going on in the media right now.  

 

 

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Anonymous wrote:

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

• AP  The body of Dr. George Tiller is removed from the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kan., Sunday,

• Slideshow:Abortion doctor shot to death
• Play Video Video:Abortion doc gunned down at church AP

By ROXANA HEGEMAN, Associated Press Writer Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer 13 mins ago

WICHITA, Kan. Law enforcement authorities in suburban Kansas City have identified a man detained by police after a late-term abortion provider was shot to death in a Wichita church.

Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson says Scott Roeder was the man whose car was stopped on Interstate 35 on Sunday, about three hours after the shooting of George Tiller.

Earlier in the day, Wichita police said the suspect was a 51-year-old man from Merriam, Kan., but they refused to identify him by name.

Roeder has not been charged in the slaying, but he was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.

The 67-year-old Tiller was serving as an usher Sunday when he was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

WICHITA, Kan. (AP) Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was arrested some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

The suspect's name was not released; police had been looking for a gunman who fled in a car registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam.

Stolz said all indications were that the man acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.

Stolz said the man was being brought back to Wichita, where he would likely be charged Monday with one count of murder and two of aggravated assault. Stolz said the gunman threatened two people who tried to stop him.

There was no immediate word of the motive Tiller's assailant. But the doctor's violent death was the latest in a string of shootings and bombings over two decades directed against abortion clinics, doctors and staff.

Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, Stolz said. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.

The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."

Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.

Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

President Barack Obama said he was "shocked and outraged" by the murder. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," he said.

At Tiller's church, Adam Watkins, 20, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.

"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

Another usher came in and told the congregation to remain seated, then escorted Tiller's wife out. "When she got to the back doors, we heard her scream, and so we knew something bad had happened," Watkins said.

He said the service continued even after an associate pastor announced that Tiller had been injured. "We were just really shocked," he said. "We were kind of dumbfounded. We couldn't really believe it had happened."

Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.

In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.

"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.

After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media. He wore a button that read "Trust Women."

The clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility. Once outside the clinic, Tiller was routinely accompanied by a bodyguard.

At a recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.

Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.

Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.

Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.

"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."

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He wore a button that said "trust women". There are so many sad layers in this tragedy, from his own loss of life, to his widows loss, children, grandchildren, patients, peers, employees, friends, neighbors. Equally as sad is there are 10's, if not hundreds of thousands of Bible thumpers that are silently cheering this premeditated murder as a triumph in the fight to preserve an embryos "life". But that's right Melissa Etheridge, Barack Obama, lets reach out and embrace Rick Warren and company, the queers and the baby killers should be thankful we're allowed to pay taxes, vote for moot "change" and give birth to children who's parents have different rights as their schoolmates do. Freaking church gangs.

 

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