That went well. And, her not really wanting to go but, supporting your decision and, rethinking going is a big deal don't you think? Reason enough to let go of feeling like she was being sarcastic at first. I like someone who questions my impulses and, the Mom in her gave pause yet real consideration to your suggestion of where she could leave her child. She likes being with you and you with her. I hope she gets to go. Gator
thanks gator. it went better than i expected it to. as i worked thru that in talking about it with all of you i admitted to myself that i was really feeling hemmed in by the constraints of working things out in relationship rather than just packing the bag and going but also an unwillingness on my part to be the one who always moves toward the center, some foot dragging around that, and some thinking on my part about why that matters so much to me. my bad i guess. but in muh defense i didnt dump the relationship or escalate it into a big battle because of it, so progress was made. lol and yeah i am really hoping that she chooses to go to. when we talked this morning i gave her a plan b which was for her and the kid to join me in barcelona for a few days after the sailing thing. this is not the best plan b for me because it involves taking more time off from work but if she couldnt in good conscience do the sail this would be evidence of movement toward compromise on her end. this is gonna happen in oct and both of our jobs have minimal flexibility at that time but i jobshare on my most inflexible job and can prolly work something out with my coworker if i have to.
tee hee so you didn't wait till Monday. I worked through some of my nasty old habits vicariously through you;) No defense needed. I've dumped and ran a few fine chances. Gator
That went well. And, her not really wanting to go but, supporting your decision and, rethinking going is a big deal don't you think? Reason enough to let go of feeling like she was being sarcastic at first. I like someone who questions my impulses and, the Mom in her gave pause yet real consideration to your suggestion of where she could leave her child. She likes being with you and you with her. I hope she gets to go. Gator
thanks gator. it went better than i expected it to. as i worked thru that in talking about it with all of you i admitted to myself that i was really feeling hemmed in by the constraints of working things out in relationship rather than just packing the bag and going but also an unwillingness on my part to be the one who always moves toward the center, some foot dragging around that, and some thinking on my part about why that matters so much to me. my bad i guess. but in muh defense i didnt dump the relationship or escalate it into a big battle because of it, so progress was made. lol and yeah i am really hoping that she chooses to go to. when we talked this morning i gave her a plan b which was for her and the kid to join me in barcelona for a few days after the sailing thing. this is not the best plan b for me because it involves taking more time off from work but if she couldnt in good conscience do the sail this would be evidence of movement toward compromise on her end. this is gonna happen in oct and both of our jobs have minimal flexibility at that time but i jobshare on my most inflexible job and can prolly work something out with my coworker if i have to.
i do know that she wont go because the kid cant go and there is nobody to care for the kid if anything happened. i get that. it really isnt something that would be safe for the kid i suppose. maybe in a few years when shes older. i can almost guarantee tho that these two things will be said. 1. you dont know how to sail. 2. have you been following the pirate stories on the news.
so, for me ... you knowing even before you ask .. that she can't go b/c of her child care issues makes this entire conversation academic ...
not entirely tho. there are reasons for not doing things and there are excuses because we really dont want to do things. sometimes its difficult to know which is which. my kids are all grown but when they werent i had sitters for short outings and trusted friends for longer times. i took them when i could and didnt when i couldnt. not to equate children with dogs but i have a friend who has older dogs and says she cant travel because of the dogs. she could travel if she found someone that she trusted to care for them in her absence but choosing not to do so appears to me to be an excuse to not go rather than a reason to not go.
" if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent." <~ Psych Lit's original post
But it's really not just a case of her saying no b/c it's not her thing is it? .... it's a case of .. even if she wanted to go she can't because she has responsibilities that make it impossible for her.
So now I kinda feel her angst. She won't like it that you're going .. knowing she can't and yet she won't stop you. She'll hope you'll care enough about her and your relationship to refuse the trip.
Yep .. could be a tough conversation coming your way ...
so heres how it went. when she called tonight i said as casually as i could, hey, weve been invited to go sailing in spain. she sort of snorted and said "have fun" which wasnt a have fun in the real sense of the word but a sort of sarcastic no thanks. so i said you dont want to go? and she said no, not really. i said ok but i think i am going to go. then we talked about some other things and out of the blue she said where would we be sailing to? and i told her the plans and she seemed like she was warming up to it and then she said do you think its wise to make plans like this with your employment situation so up in the air? and i said i think im going to be ok there. at least it seems that way now. i cant live my life based on what might happen that far into the future. then we talked about more other things and she said what would i do with _________(the kid) can she come? i said how about one of her play group friends from church are there any families youd be ok with leaving her with? she didnt respond but it seemed to be a thinking silence. then we talked about some summer programs here for the kid while they are here and then again out of nowhere she said i dont know maybe ill go. i said i have to know by monday. and she said so soon? i feel like i dont have time to think about this. i told her that the charter plans were going to be finalized on mon and after that it wouldnt be easy to add someone. and thats how we left it. after i hung up i made her an air reservation and sent her an email copy of the itin and air confirmation and told her to call and pay for her ticket if she decides to go. so shes processing it i think. we didnt have a fight over it but i dont think we had the real conversation that needs to be had either. we could have but i think i am equally responsible for not having it. i figger monday is soon enough for that. im not big on conflict.
That went well. And, her not really wanting to go but, supporting your decision and, rethinking going is a big deal don't you think? Reason enough to let go of feeling like she was being sarcastic at first. I like someone who questions my impulses and, the Mom in her gave pause yet real consideration to your suggestion of where she could leave her child. She likes being with you and you with her. I hope she gets to go. Gator
. Or feel you SHOULD live with, which seems, really, to be your underlying question in some ways. That seems to be a pretty situation-specific thing to me, as well as person-specific.
well yeah. i dont want to go that route and thats raising the interior warning bells for me. if i feel like i have to not tell her where i am going to avoid an argument thats definitely not heading the realtionship in a direction thats healthy and so definitely not where i want to go. god. its all so complicated this love stuff.
Indeed it is. Complicated, and SCARY! Sometimes SOOOOOO scary, we begin to create scenarios of conflict and unrest in our heads, and follow them through to their inevitable and unsatisfatory conclusions,and get ticked off at the other person and then use that as reasoning to put up tentative walls of protection around ourselves -- all to the utter surprise and astonishment of the other person who really, didn't even know about the fight, or even participate in it.
Well, not US, of course, but ... "other people"...
lol. did i do that? prolly so, huh. walking down the garden path of what ifs eh?
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:19:14 PM
i do know that she wont go because the kid cant go and there is nobody to care for the kid if anything happened. i get that. it really isnt something that would be safe for the kid i suppose. maybe in a few years when shes older. i can almost guarantee tho that these two things will be said. 1. you dont know how to sail. 2. have you been following the pirate stories on the news.
so, for me ... you knowing even before you ask .. that she can't go b/c of her child care issues makes this entire conversation academic ...
not entirely tho. there are reasons for not doing things and there are excuses because we really dont want to do things. sometimes its difficult to know which is which. my kids are all grown but when they werent i had sitters for short outings and trusted friends for longer times. i took them when i could and didnt when i couldnt. not to equate children with dogs but i have a friend who has older dogs and says she cant travel because of the dogs. she could travel if she found someone that she trusted to care for them in her absence but choosing not to do so appears to me to be an excuse to not go rather than a reason to not go.
" if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent." <~ Psych Lit's original post
But it's really not just a case of her saying no b/c it's not her thing is it? .... it's a case of .. even if she wanted to go she can't because she has responsibilities that make it impossible for her.
So now I kinda feel her angst. She won't like it that you're going .. knowing she can't and yet she won't stop you. She'll hope you'll care enough about her and your relationship to refuse the trip.
Yep .. could be a tough conversation coming your way ...
so heres how it went. when she called tonight i said as casually as i could, hey, weve been invited to go sailing in spain. she sort of snorted and said "have fun" which wasnt a have fun in the real sense of the word but a sort of sarcastic no thanks. so i said you dont want to go? and she said no, not really. i said ok but i think i am going to go. then we talked about some other things and out of the blue she said where would we be sailing to? and i told her the plans and she seemed like she was warming up to it and then she said do you think its wise to make plans like this with your employment situation so up in the air? and i said i think im going to be ok there. at least it seems that way now. i cant live my life based on what might happen that far into the future. then we talked about more other things and she said what would i do with _________(the kid) can she come? i said how about one of her play group friends from church are there any families youd be ok with leaving her with? she didnt respond but it seemed to be a thinking silence. then we talked about some summer programs here for the kid while they are here and then again out of nowhere she said i dont know maybe ill go. i said i have to know by monday. and she said so soon? i feel like i dont have time to think about this. i told her that the charter plans were going to be finalized on mon and after that it wouldnt be easy to add someone. and thats how we left it. after i hung up i made her an air reservation and sent her an email copy of the itin and air confirmation and told her to call and pay for her ticket if she decides to go. so shes processing it i think. we didnt have a fight over it but i dont think we had the real conversation that needs to be had either. we could have but i think i am equally responsible for not having it. i figger monday is soon enough for that. im not big on conflict.
i hear ya on this....i was in a similar situation with someone that i was totally and completely head over heels for....we talked here and there for about 7 months before we met, began dating and then about 6 months after that we were in a relationship...so not "just dating"....the problem for me was when i would ask her to do something or go somewhere, i was told no a lot....not always, but a lot. i know she was a busy woman and did have family and friends that she did things with...all totally cool. but many times she was just, oh, sorry, i already have plans, some other time?. didnt share what they were or suggest another specific day and time...hence what i wrote below about evasive-ness or secretiveness..and to me that translated into her not being as into me as i was into her...then after awhile, after being told no so many times, i began to not ask her simply because i felt rejected with each no. totally about me and my feelings and insecurities...but that is how i felt. my heart sing! i still miss her.... she was an awesome woman!
Sometimes we can cling to the way we want things to be when we should be working with the ways things are. Gator
i see where nesea is going with this...and now that she has listed it this clearly, i too can see why you are having angst over this situation. even so, if things were going great in my relationship, i wouldnt have a problem with my gf going especially if i cant. however, with the angst you are having, i am kinda feeling that things are not exactly perfect. if they were, i dont see that your going on this trip would or should cause any problems...however if things are a bit rough right now i can see how this might cause a problem, even more so when she finds out that you have already booked it without giving her the courtesy of letting her know beforehand. at this point i would think very carefully how you bring up and word the upcoming trip. if you wanna keep this relationship, do all you can to reassure her that this is really something you wanna do and how much you wish you could have her come too.
no, not really but its been my experience in realtionships where this has been the stated reason tho it always seems irrational to me. and maybe part of this is that im tagging her with things that others have said to be over the years. i do know that she wont go because the kid cant go and there is nobody to care for the kid if anything happened. i get that. it really isnt something that would be safe for the kid i suppose. maybe in a few years when shes older. i can almost guarantee tho that these two things will be said. 1. you dont know how to sail. 2. have you been following the pirate stories on the news.
so, for me ... you knowing even before you ask .. that she can't go b/c of her child care issues makes this entire conversation academic ...
" if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent." <~ Psych Lit's original post
But it's really not just a case of her saying no b/c it's not her thing is it? .... it's a case of .. even if she wanted to go she can't because she has responsibilities that make it impossible for her.
So now I kinda feel her angst. She won't like it that you're going .. knowing she can't and yet she won't stop you. She'll hope you'll care enough about her and your relationship to refuse the trip.
Yep .. could be a tough conversation coming your way ...
__________________
"Bicycles are trust and balance, and that's what love is." -- Nikki Giovanni
oops! forgot to add that it is awesome you brought the issue up to her....for me, by the time the woman i loved so very much mentioned it to me, she had already made up her mind about what she thought and it seemed wasnt open to hearing that it wasnt that i didnt want to ask her or be with her....nothing could have been farther from the truth!....it was about me and my feeling rejected or not a priority.....it was because i wanted to see her and be with her more than she knew, and how much it hurt to be told no, that always i didnt ask.
-- Edited by My Turn on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:00:16 AM
Is this about, and directed to another poster on this board? If so, I've got to tell you, that after a year or so, it's really making me very uncomfortable, thrusting me into the awkward position of unwilling voyeur, and really wish I didn't have to worry about every time I opened one of your posts.
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:31:29 AM
uuuuuh...noooooooooooo.......
i think i have already posted that i have had way more than one woman. there have been 5 "relationships" and which i would classify the person as an ex....about 10 exclusive dating sitations and i cant even begin to count the number of just dating ones.....
jeez...cant even compliment someone on having the courage to bring up something that was bothering them and tell how i did it wrong without being called to the carpet...... for me, i find it helpful to hear how others handled situations that are bothering them in a relationship and i also learn from the mistakes others have made. i was posting my mistake so that maybe someone somewhere could learn from how i did it wrong.....and man! it took a long time and a lot of work for me to ever admit i had done something wrong.....and be comfortable with the fact that i am not perfect......
-- Edited by My Turn on Saturday 11th of April 2009 01:18:12 PM
. Or feel you SHOULD live with, which seems, really, to be your underlying question in some ways. That seems to be a pretty situation-specific thing to me, as well as person-specific.
well yeah. i dont want to go that route and thats raising the interior warning bells for me. if i feel like i have to not tell her where i am going to avoid an argument thats definitely not heading the realtionship in a direction thats healthy and so definitely not where i want to go. god. its all so complicated this love stuff.
Indeed it is. Complicated, and SCARY! Sometimes SOOOOOO scary, we begin to create scenarios of conflict and unrest in our heads, and follow them through to their inevitable and unsatisfatory conclusions,and get ticked off at the other person and then use that as reasoning to put up tentative walls of protection around ourselves -- all to the utter surprise and astonishment of the other person who really, didn't even know about the fight, or even participate in it.
Well, not US, of course, but ... "other people"...
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:19:14 PM
Stepping away from the specific, to the more generalized, I think it's helpful to relationships to play the "step into my shoes for a moment" game.
There are all sorts of possible reasons our partners might not want us to do something -- many that we can't even really know, unless we ask, and in the asking WHY, we have a better chance for a positive outcome, I think. In this particular instance, would she say "no" about YOUR going because she'll miss you, and/or be envious of the good time you're having with another person,
bingo. or maybe im projecting here. if she were going to italy for the opera tour id prolly not go since opera makes me sleepy but id want her to go. id also be very envious of the time spent with others that didnt have opera involved so im assuming that its more about not going than my going. i dont think id pout tho but who knows?
or is she, for instance, afraid for you, your safety?
no, not really but its been my experience in realtionships where this has been the stated reason tho it always seems irrational to me. and maybe part of this is that im tagging her with things that others have said to be over the years. i do know that she wont go because the kid cant go and there is nobody to care for the kid if anything happened. i get that. it really isnt something that would be safe for the kid i suppose. maybe in a few years when shes older. i can almost guarantee tho that these two things will be said. 1. you dont know how to sail. 2. have you been following the pirate stories on the news.
Those are just two possibilities, but would each suggest a unique response on your part, I'd think. Also, I think sometimes we THINK we're acting automously, when in reality, what we opt to do DOES have a direct impact upon our partners, and in that instance, their desires deserve a fair hearing, I'd think. Basic "golden rule" stuff, really.
yes and id agree with that intellectually anyway. its the follow thru thats always proven difficult. is it a fair hearing when the mind is already made up? thats where i seem to fall down as a partner and yet if the shoe were on the other foot id be pissed at the false choice as much as the event. if i really do listen and do what is desired then i may get resentful at being told no. the back and forth in my head is about whether its really about freedom for me or whether its about hearing no.
. As it turned out, she and the recruiter both had a major disappointment, in the form of question #17 on the application/enlistment form -- this was before "Don't Ask Don't Tell" of course, and there it was in black and white. Her reply was "yes" his was: "Are you SURE??" and there was a little discussion after that, and then, no Navy.
how did you feel afterward? you didnt stand in the way but it sounds like you didnt want her to go?
Freedom IS the wiser choice, always, I think. The sticking point is that it applies to the freedom to be in or out of a primary relationship, and sometimes, if one takes the "free" choice to be IN one, then along come restrictions. The key, I think, is to both share a firm notion of what those restrictions are. Easier said than done, I know. :)
and this has been the big sticking point for me for the last 5 years or so. why must this be so? i suppose i do get it on some level its just not something id choose for myself and so maybe the parade of exs are right and i am non relational. sigh.
. Or feel you SHOULD live with, which seems, really, to be your underlying question in some ways. That seems to be a pretty situation-specific thing to me, as well as person-specific.
well yeah. i dont want to go that route and thats raising the interior warning bells for me. if i feel like i have to not tell her where i am going to avoid an argument thats definitely not heading the realtionship in a direction thats healthy and so definitely not where i want to go. god. its all so complicated this love stuff.
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:14:16 AM
You don't say how long you'll be gone, but for $600, I have to imagine it's a fairly short trip. So, we're really just talking about a vacation here, right?
yep, 10 days. one week on the water and a few days in spain. thats it.
First, ask yourself if you would really like her to go. If the answer is yes, you can present the package in such a way that she just may want to go. Who, in their right mind, would pass up an opportunity to vacation in Spain for under $1000?
oh yeah i really would like her to go. the story of my last 3 relationships has been one where i like to go places more than they do and so ive either gone alone or gone with friends instead and lemme tell you that sucks. thats a good question tho as it brings up something for me. is my not telling her some sort of anger control on my part because i will be pissed myself if she says no? the other side of the freedom question. that is a distinct possibility. in an ideal world there are things that we do together and things that we do apart and both are good but i find as i get older that there are fewer women my age who are willing to do things that require a physical stretch so its been the trend that really cool things get done with others while the more mundane things get done with partners. hmmm i am gonna have to look a little closer at that.
I guess this really wasn't the answer to your question. Back to the freedom v. love question. Without freedom, you can't have love. If you are free to live your life as you see fit, you can open yourself to receive love. So, you can have both. Olive was correct.
I have this amazing friend. She is so full of life, she oozes it. Every day is jam packed with adventures and busy stuff, and she does what she wants, when she wants, and with whom she wants. I am constantly amazed at how so many people flock around her.
and is she partnered? is her partner ok with the what she wants when she wants aspect? thats what i am looking for relationally but damn its hard to find.
I think they're attracted to the freedom with which she lives. I wonder how many people get that about her.
what i have found is that the very things that attract people to you are the things they become hell bent to change once they are in a relationship with you. wish it werent that way. why try and change what was once appealing? maybe thats why relationships dont last?
Okay, that was my break for today. It's 9:30 and I have to get to work. Happy Easter to all.
this must be hell week for you, yes? i still havent finished my taxes. im aiming for tomorrow night. lol squeaking under the deadline. i started to do them this morning but the power went out for a couple of hours. green acres is the place to be. lol. yanno i just paid an electrician to fix the wind driven connectivity problem and this is the second time in a week that the power has gone out.
You know your partner and, saying you know she would say no, I would expect what compliments you best is a partner that would say go and have a good time. To be loving compliments our personal strengths and freedom and, you telling her right away your decisions and plans as opposed to keeping the secret is a huge act of love on your part and, is a positive force to guide her toward personal strength. I only hope your not goign with any ex's;) That almost always spells disaster. Gator.
yeah, i wanted to say something last night but chickened out. i was tired and not in the mood for crud tho i cant be sure that id get crud if you know what i mean. i felt bad not saying anything tho. it felt like an erosion of the relationship to avoid the confrontation. nope no exs involved. a friend, her sister and her sisters partner and two other women that i dont know but i assume they are a couple. they all know how to sail. i dont. im thinking it would be fun to learn something new and explore some places that i dont know a lot about. no potential woman problems on this trip just a new thing to learn about
I absolutely believe it is. And really, I'm a submissive type, more complacent and peacekeeping maybe is a better choice of words. But, I totally believe that both is attainable. You're also hearing from someone who isn't necessarily convinced any longer that relationships have ever been meant to be "forever".
im sort of in this way of thinking these days too tho im trying not to be. thinking this way may make these things self fulfilling.
One thing right away, to me, is the importance of bringing it to the table immediately. Her maternal concerns of imminent safety real or embellished are her own. Period. It sounds like a fantastic trip, dirt affordable bargain. Shyt, if she wont go? I will.
And it could be with anything. I recall plenty of times when couples have had major arguments over one going to an event or "got two tix only" thing with a good friend or co-worker or family and the partner is obviously not an option on that party.
yep been there too. i did the ill go option on that once and regretted it later due to the unforseen manipulations of the ticket holder. dont know that id do that again. tho i guess it would depend upon the event.lol
It ruins people, and yet in that it can save them. If someone doesn't trust enough to let you go, there's something in them, something we can't change. Whether its just pissy and fleeting or potentially toxic and destructive always remains to be seen. But bring it up soon and test those waters. Next summer is a long way off. Good luck. Lemme know when to pack!
i dont think its a trust issue as much as it is a relational issue. ive got an echo in my head of a relationship past where the woman said why do you bother asking since its not really a question of whether or not youll go. youve already made up your mind. and thats sort of where i am here. i have already made up my mind. i booked my flight reservation right after saying yes tho i havent paid for it yet. so it feels false to say i wont go if you dont want me to and hope that she says oh no go ahead and do it. thats too gamey for me to deal with.
oops! forgot to add that it is awesome you brought the issue up to her....for me, by the time the woman i loved so very much mentioned it to me, she had already made up her mind about what she thought and it seemed wasnt open to hearing that it wasnt that i didnt want to ask her or be with her....nothing could have been farther from the truth!....it was about me and my feeling rejected or not a priority.....it was because i wanted to see her and be with her more than she knew, and how much it hurt to be told no, that always i didnt ask.
-- Edited by My Turn on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:00:16 AM
Is this about, and directed to another poster on this board? If so, I've got to tell you, that after a year or so, it's really making me very uncomfortable, thrusting me into the awkward position of unwilling voyeur, and really wish I didn't have to worry about every time I opened one of your posts.
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:31:29 AM
Stepping away from the specific, to the more generalized, I think it's helpful to relationships to play the "step into my shoes for a moment" game.
There are all sorts of possible reasons our partners might not want us to do something -- many that we can't even really know, unless we ask, and in the asking WHY, we have a better chance for a positive outcome, I think. In this particular instance, would she say "no" about YOUR going because she'll miss you, and/or be envious of the good time you're having with another person, or is she, for instance, afraid for you, your safety? Those are just two possibilities, but would each suggest a unique response on your part, I'd think. Also, I think sometimes we THINK we're acting automously, when in reality, what we opt to do DOES have a direct impact upon our partners, and in that instance, their desires deserve a fair hearing, I'd think. Basic "golden rule" stuff, really.
I just flashed back on my first lover's desire to join the Navy. Boy oh boy did I have a lot of grappling to do with THAT! I was opposed to her life choice on a NUMBER of levels, but did eventually resign myself to the possibility of living with her choice, where ever it might take me. Of course, back then, (as well as now, to some extent) being a lesbian with a partner in the military would not have meant I'd have been allowed the perks married heterosexual couples have, so it would have been a lot more difficult to have followed her around from assignment to assignment. As it turned out, she and the recruiter both had a major disappointment, in the form of question #17 on the application/enlistment form -- this was before "Don't Ask Don't Tell" of course, and there it was in black and white. Her reply was "yes" his was: "Are you SURE??" and there was a little discussion after that, and then, no Navy.
Another, more recent conflict involved an ex's desire to retire to a place with a WARM climate. Me? I'm just the opposite. I'm pretty much sick to death of 110 plus degree weather, and could see myself very happily spending the balance of my life in a place where the hottest day was 85. In our case, we found a compromise -- a place with a median temperature which meant that neither of us was particularly THRILLED, but also, not the opposite of that, either. It's a matter of priority, really, isn't it? Had she NOT become my "ex" and had we actually moved to that town, I imagine "separate vacations" would have been in our futures, which, again, is a bummer, because really, I'm the type of camper who most likes to be in those places I love with the PERSON I love, but I would have been okay with my heading to the lush, verdant pine forests in then snow country, and she, to some broiler pan elsewhere.
The point from which I've managed to so far stay, is that HER choice for HER had huge impact on ME, and in those instances, at least for me, I'm a real consensus person. I guess my default POV is "what is going to be best for the relationship?" Sometimes, what IS best is for me to actualize my dreams, regardless. It really does become, in some ways, a sort of "power struggle," doesn't it? And I guess that's your basic question. I have this fairly new knee jerk response to life, which is "Yes, as a matter of fact, it IS 'all about me." There is, of course, more to that assertion than meets the eye, because oftentimes what's best for ME is doing what's best for someone else, at the expense of my dreams for me. I think in partnerships we have to pick our battles, and identify the ones we're willing to lose, and the consequence of the ones we're adamant about winning, and how those consequences compare to the victory du jour. For instance: if you put your foot down and say you WILL go no matter what, and she is just as adamantly against it, then is it something which holds equal import to what she might do in response? Sometimes, I think it is, and sometimes too, I think when we DON'T do those things important to us, we create a breeding ground for subtle resentment, and that is erosive to a relationship as much as anything.
In other words... I don't know.
Try on the "positions reversed" cloak -- put yourself in her shoes for a moment, and alter the specifics of the situation accordingly. If she's afraid for your safety, imagine a scenario where she was going to go do something which caused YOU fear for HER safety, and see where you come out. If you would "let" her go, however unhappily, then the reverse should hold true. Of course it's to what degree the peril lies, and you may have very different ideas about that. In that case, I think I'd want to help her better understand how low the probability of her fears being realized -- sometimes, that's all it takes.
Freedom IS the wiser choice, always, I think. The sticking point is that it applies to the freedom to be in or out of a primary relationship, and sometimes, if one takes the "free" choice to be IN one, then along come restrictions. The key, I think, is to both share a firm notion of what those restrictions are. Easier said than done, I know. :)
Good luck, and yeah, everything everyone else said makes a lot of sense to me. In interpersonal interactions, there's that "choice" thing too, isn't there. I mean ... if really, you DON'T want her to join you, and you act as if you do because you predict it will better pave the way for you to go alone... well, isn't that sort of a lie? The question then, I suppose, is if it's a lie you can live with. Or feel you SHOULD live with, which seems, really, to be your underlying question in some ways. That seems to be a pretty situation-specific thing to me, as well as person-specific.
-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:14:16 AM
oops! forgot to add that it is awesome you brought the issue up to her....for me, by the time the woman i loved so very much mentioned it to me, she had already made up her mind about what she thought and it seemed wasnt open to hearing that it wasnt that i didnt want to ask her or be with her....nothing could have been farther from the truth!....it was about me and my feeling rejected or not a priority.....it was because i wanted to see her and be with her more than she knew, and how much it hurt to be told no, that always i didnt ask.
-- Edited by My Turn on Saturday 11th of April 2009 08:00:16 AM
You may know that she will say "no" if asked to go, but if you don't ask, that is what will cause the problems. I was dating someone for a while who would always make plans to do this or that, and I was rarely invited. When I brought it up, I was told, "well, it's not your thing and I figured you wouldn't want to go anyway." But, I was never given the option, that was the zinger. We were just dating, so I didn't make a federal case of it. She was certainly free to do as she pleased, as was I.
i hear ya on this....i was in a similar situation with someone that i was totally and completely head over heels for....we talked here and there for about 7 months before we met, began dating and then about 6 months after that we were in a relationship...so not "just dating"....the problem for me was when i would ask her to do something or go somewhere, i was told no a lot....not always, but a lot. i know she was a busy woman and did have family and friends that she did things with...all totally cool. but many times she was just, oh, sorry, i already have plans, some other time?. didnt share what they were or suggest another specific day and time...hence what i wrote below about evasive-ness or secretiveness..and to me that translated into her not being as into me as i was into her...then after awhile, after being told no so many times, i began to not ask her simply because i felt rejected with each no. totally about me and my feelings and insecurities...but that is how i felt. plus if i was lucky enough to see her yesterday, i would not get to see her today or the next...or usually, for several days, or a week or two after that..and even knowing that, there were so many days and weeks that i didnt make plans just in case she wanted to do something...(i know, i know..shouldnt do that..but that was how much i wanted to see her.....i didnt want to have to tell her no)....however, i was always up for whatever she wanted to do...even at the last minute and even to the point of changing plans i may have already had......just hearing her voice and having her "want me" made my heart sing! i still miss her.... she was an awesome woman!
yep .. these girls are indeed wise. The only thing I would add is to affirm the assertion that, based on what I've read from you, these treks are indeed part of who you are. A partner will (or should) know and respect that aspect of you.
we can't hold so tight that we strangle what we love ....
Fantastic point! She will understand that this is just who Psych is, and will be happy for her to have this opportunity.
yep .. these girls are indeed wise. The only thing I would add is to affirm the assertion that, based on what I've read from you, these treks are indeed part of who you are. A partner will (or should) know and respect that aspect of you.
we can't hold so tight that we strangle what we love ....
__________________
"Bicycles are trust and balance, and that's what love is." -- Nikki Giovanni
I saw a woman sleeping. In her sleep she dreamt life stood before her, and held in each hand a gift-- in one hand love in the other freedom. And she said to the woman, 'choose'. And the woman waited long: and she said 'freedom'.' And life said "thou hast well chosen. If thou hadst said 'love' I would have given thee that thou didst ask for. And I would have gone from thee, and returned to thee no more. Now the day will come when I shall bear both gifts in one hand." I heard the woman laugh in her sleep. --Olive Schreiner
this choice is always a stumbling block for me and when i lay head to pillow at night i hear the chorus of ex's in my sleep telling me that my choices in these matters are perhaps non relational.in my perfect world one shouldn't have to choose. one should feel free to pursue dreams, take chances and basically live the life that is destined for you regardless of whether one is in or out of relationship.
which leads me to the current dilemma. someone asked me today if i wanted to join them on a sailing trip in europe next fall. the cost is minimal. amazingly minimal 160. plus tax for a round trip ticket from new york to barcelona and to kick in some of the cost for the charter. all together less than 600 including the airfare plus whatever spending money id want to bring. i said yes but i didnt consult with the gf about this before saying yes and the fur is gonna fly when i mention it. i didnt mention it on the phone tonight either tho i feel i should do this before i pay for the ticket tho what are the options. what if she says dont do it? what then? ive never been good at this reining in thing and really that isnt a possibility id like to entertain. shell be back here at the end of the month for the summer and its sure to come up from friends conversation so i cant duck it forever. if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent. and if i said well i think im going to go anyway i suspect id get the mouth saying "do what you want" while the attitude would say something entirely different.
these kinds of things always come up in relationships. no two people are going to have the exact same interests and ive always been of the opinion that people shouldnt change who they are if for no other reason than the eventual boredom that is sure to come when you cease to act as yourself for the benefit of a relationship. were the situation reversed id be saying oh that sounds like funhave a great time. that approach has its problems too. most people think that encouraging freedom within a relationship is taken up as a lack of caring.
so wise women. when this kind of thing has come up in your relationships, how did you handle it? is it possible to have both freedom and love?
-- Edited by Psych Lit on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:00:46 AM
You don't say how long you'll be gone, but for $600, I have to imagine it's a fairly short trip. So, we're really just talking about a vacation here, right?
You may know that she will say "no" if asked to go, but if you don't ask, that is what will cause the problems. I was dating someone for a while who would always make plans to do this or that, and I was rarely invited. When I brought it up, I was told, "well, it's not your thing and I figured you wouldn't want to go anyway." But, I was never given the option, that was the zinger. We were just dating, so I didn't make a federal case of it. She was certainly free to do as she pleased, as was I.
First, ask yourself if you would really like her to go. If the answer is yes, you can present the package in such a way that she just may want to go. Who, in their right mind, would pass up an opportunity to vacation in Spain for under $1000? Start with something like, "Hey, we have this fantastic opportunity..." describe it in your words, and don't forget to sound excited about it. The more excited you are about the trip, the less appealing it will be for her to burst your bubble. This is simply human psychology, which I'm sure I don't have to explain to you.
She may still say she can't go or won't go, and you'll be disappointed, but explain that you simply can't pass up this opportunity, you may not get it again.
I guess this really wasn't the answer to your question. Back to the freedom v. love question. Without freedom, you can't have love. If you are free to live your life as you see fit, you can open yourself to receive love. So, you can have both. Olive was correct.
I have this amazing friend. She is so full of life, she oozes it. Every day is jam packed with adventures and busy stuff, and she does what she wants, when she wants, and with whom she wants. I am constantly amazed at how so many people flock around her. I think they're attracted to the freedom with which she lives. I wonder how many people get that about her.
Okay, that was my break for today. It's 9:30 and I have to get to work. Happy Easter to all.
you telling her right away your decisions and plans as opposed to keeping the secret is a huge act of love on your part and, is a positive force to guide her toward personal strength.
omg! this is huge!!.....secretiveness and evasive-ness will make it soooooo much harder for her.....being open and sharing your plans in general, even if it is not an option for her to join you (in whatever "it" is)...is definitely an act of love and respect for her and her feelings and helping her to feel more secure in the relationship and stronger about the two of you as a couple.....
as far as the gf...well, obviously you are more than willing to have her(and the kid!!) go with you, so if i were the gf, i would not have an issue with you going. if i was invited but couldnt or didnt want to go, while i would miss my gf, it would be a thousands times easier to have her go and wish her a great time. if it were presented to me as, this is what i am doing and sorry, but you cant go, i would probably feel hurt, but i would never say she couldnt go. i think the biggest issue is the matter of trust. if i trust that my girl is committed and faithful to me and i know she is coming home to me, still faithful and committed, than i have no issues with saying "go, have fun! see you when you get back...i'll miss you!" if due to others things that have happened up to this point in the relationship, i am feeling insecure that she is not, or possibly would not be faithful, while i would never say dont go, it would definitely be harder for me to be happy for this opportunity for her.
i think the important part of opening up this discussion is when you start, absolutely include her in the invitation. hey honey, guess what?! so and so has this great opportunity to go to...blah blah blah...and it only costs blah blah blah....so i told her yes...and i would love for you (or you and the kid) to go too....whaddya think? wanna come?!?!?
i think that one can absolutely have freedom and love in a relationship....it just takes a little consideration of the other person's feelings. even if you took that last spot/opening on the trip and it was sold out and she couldnt go if she wanted to...the way the situation is worded/presented makes a huge difference. you cant control how she feels or reacts but you can, with the way you present it and your actions and reassurance of your love and commitment to her, make it easier for her. what she does with it after that, is about her and her view of the stability/commitment level of the relationship.
agree with BD on two things....bring it up as soon as possible, (altho i am thinking it would be better in person than on the phone) and if she cant or wont go...i will too!!!
I saw a woman sleeping. In her sleep she dreamt life stood before her, and held in each hand a gift-- in one hand love in the other freedom. And she said to the woman, 'choose'. And the woman waited long: and she said 'freedom'.' And life said "thou hast well chosen. If thou hadst said 'love' I would have given thee that thou didst ask for. And I would have gone from thee, and returned to thee no more. Now the day will come when I shall bear both gifts in one hand." I heard the woman laugh in her sleep. --Olive Schreiner
this choice is always a stumbling block for me and when i lay head to pillow at night i hear the chorus of ex's in my sleep telling me that my choices in these matters are perhaps non relational.in my perfect world one shouldn't have to choose. one should feel free to pursue dreams, take chances and basically live the life that is destined for you regardless of whether one is in or out of relationship.
which leads me to the current dilemma. someone asked me today if i wanted to join them on a sailing trip in europe next fall. the cost is minimal. amazingly minimal 160. plus tax for a round trip ticket from new york to barcelona and to kick in some of the cost for the charter. all together less than 600 including the airfare plus whatever spending money id want to bring. i said yes but i didnt consult with the gf about this before saying yes and the fur is gonna fly when i mention it. i didnt mention it on the phone tonight either tho i feel i should do this before i pay for the ticket tho what are the options. what if she says dont do it? what then? ive never been good at this reining in thing and really that isnt a possibility id like to entertain. shell be back here at the end of the month for the summer and its sure to come up from friends conversation so i cant duck it forever. if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent. and if i said well i think im going to go anyway i suspect id get the mouth saying "do what you want" while the attitude would say something entirely different.
these kinds of things always come up in relationships. no two people are going to have the exact same interests and ive always been of the opinion that people shouldnt change who they are if for no other reason than the eventual boredom that is sure to come when you cease to act as yourself for the benefit of a relationship. were the situation reversed id be saying oh that sounds like funhave a great time. that approach has its problems too. most people think that encouraging freedom within a relationship is taken up as a lack of caring.
so wise women. when this kind of thing has come up in your relationships, how did you handle it? is it possible to have both freedom and love?
-- Edited by Psych Lit on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:00:46 AM
All I know of you is reading about your wonderful treks through life. They are expected. lol I think we all need that deeper alone time to keep ourselves in the light / act of loving as opposed to the stale state of being in love. I don't think it is possibly to have freedom and, have focus only on "being in love" but, to be loving (and your treks are important) gives us personal strength and freedom. You know your partner and, saying you know she would say no, I would expect what compliments you best is a partner that would say go and have a good time. To be loving compliments our personal strengths and freedom and, you telling her right away your decisions and plans as opposed to keeping the secret is a huge act of love on your part and, is a positive force to guide her toward personal strength. I only hope your not goign with any ex's;) That almost always spells disaster. Gator.
I saw a woman sleeping. In her sleep she dreamt life stood before her, and held in each hand a gift-- in one hand love in the other freedom. And she said to the woman, 'choose'. And the woman waited long: and she said 'freedom'.' And life said "thou hast well chosen. If thou hadst said 'love' I would have given thee that thou didst ask for. And I would have gone from thee, and returned to thee no more. Now the day will come when I shall bear both gifts in one hand." I heard the woman laugh in her sleep. --Olive Schreiner
this choice is always a stumbling block for me and when i lay head to pillow at night i hear the chorus of ex's in my sleep telling me that my choices in these matters are perhaps non relational.in my perfect world one shouldn't have to choose. one should feel free to pursue dreams, take chances and basically live the life that is destined for you regardless of whether one is in or out of relationship.
which leads me to the current dilemma. someone asked me today if i wanted to join them on a sailing trip in europe next fall. the cost is minimal. amazingly minimal 160. plus tax for a round trip ticket from new york to barcelona and to kick in some of the cost for the charter. all together less than 600 including the airfare plus whatever spending money id want to bring. i said yes but i didnt consult with the gf about this before saying yes and the fur is gonna fly when i mention it. i didnt mention it on the phone tonight either tho i feel i should do this before i pay for the ticket tho what are the options. what if she says dont do it? what then? ive never been good at this reining in thing and really that isnt a possibility id like to entertain. shell be back here at the end of the month for the summer and its sure to come up from friends conversation so i cant duck it forever. if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent. and if i said well i think im going to go anyway i suspect id get the mouth saying "do what you want" while the attitude would say something entirely different.
these kinds of things always come up in relationships. no two people are going to have the exact same interests and ive always been of the opinion that people shouldnt change who they are if for no other reason than the eventual boredom that is sure to come when you cease to act as yourself for the benefit of a relationship. were the situation reversed id be saying oh that sounds like funhave a great time. that approach has its problems too. most people think that encouraging freedom within a relationship is taken up as a lack of caring.
so wise women. when this kind of thing has come up in your relationships, how did you handle it? is it possible to have both freedom and love?
-- Edited by Psych Lit on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:00:46 AM
I absolutely believe it is. And really, I'm a submissive type, more complacent and peacekeeping maybe is a better choice of words. But, I totally believe that both is attainable. You're also hearing from someone who isn't necessarily convinced any longer that relationships have ever been meant to be "forever". One thing right away, to me, is the importance of bringing it to the table immediately. Her maternal concerns of imminent safety real or embellished are her own. Period. It sounds like a fantastic trip, dirt affordable bargain. Shyt, if she wont go? I will.
Bottom line, if the offering party is willing to take on your gf and her child or not the child at all, then I think the problem or concern should be placed in the lap of the gf to decide if she wishes to join. Period. Let her own it. She'll recover. And it could be with anything. I recall plenty of times when couples have had major arguments over one going to an event or "got two tix only" thing with a good friend or co-worker or family and the partner is obviously not an option on that party. It ruins people, and yet in that it can save them. If someone doesn't trust enough to let you go, there's something in them, something we can't change. Whether its just pissy and fleeting or potentially toxic and destructive always remains to be seen. But bring it up soon and test those waters. Next summer is a long way off. Good luck. Lemme know when to pack!
I saw a woman sleeping. In her sleep she dreamt life stood before her, and held in each hand a gift-- in one hand love in the other freedom. And she said to the woman, 'choose'. And the woman waited long: and she said 'freedom'.' And life said "thou hast well chosen. If thou hadst said 'love' I would have given thee that thou didst ask for. And I would have gone from thee, and returned to thee no more. Now the day will come when I shall bear both gifts in one hand." I heard the woman laugh in her sleep. --Olive Schreiner
this choice is always a stumbling block for me and when i lay head to pillow at night i hear the chorus of ex's in my sleep telling me that my choices in these matters are perhaps non relational.in my perfect world one shouldn't have to choose. one should feel free to pursue dreams, take chances and basically live the life that is destined for you regardless of whether one is in or out of relationship.
which leads me to the current dilemma. someone asked me today if i wanted to join them on a sailing trip in europe next fall. the cost is minimal. amazingly minimal 160. plus tax for a round trip ticket from new york to barcelona and to kick in some of the cost for the charter. all together less than 600 including the airfare plus whatever spending money id want to bring. i said yes but i didnt consult with the gf about this before saying yes and the fur is gonna fly when i mention it. i didnt mention it on the phone tonight either tho i feel i should do this before i pay for the ticket tho what are the options. what if she says dont do it? what then? ive never been good at this reining in thing and really that isnt a possibility id like to entertain. shell be back here at the end of the month for the summer and its sure to come up from friends conversation so i cant duck it forever. if i ask her to join us i know she will say no. this would not be her thing and shed be concerned about the risk factor and being a single parent. and if i said well i think im going to go anyway i suspect id get the mouth saying "do what you want" while the attitude would say something entirely different.
these kinds of things always come up in relationships. no two people are going to have the exact same interests and ive always been of the opinion that people shouldnt change who they are if for no other reason than the eventual boredom that is sure to come when you cease to act as yourself for the benefit of a relationship. were the situation reversed id be saying oh that sounds like funhave a great time. that approach has its problems too. most people think that encouraging freedom within a relationship is taken up as a lack of caring.
so wise women. when this kind of thing has come up in your relationships, how did you handle it? is it possible to have both freedom and love?
-- Edited by Psych Lit on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:00:46 AM
my bad i guess. but in muh defense i didnt dump the relationship or escalate it into a big battle because of it, so progress was made. lol and yeah i am really hoping that she chooses to go to. when we talked this morning i gave her a plan b which was for her and the kid to join me in barcelona for a few days after the sailing thing. this is not the best plan b for me because it involves taking more time off from work but if she couldnt in good conscience do the sail this would be evidence of movement toward compromise on her end. this is gonna happen in oct and both of our jobs have minimal flexibility at that time but i jobshare on my most inflexible job and can prolly work something out with my coworker if i have to. 
she was an awesome woman!
