Where Everybody Knows You're Numb

Psych Lit · Guru

RE: rut roh

Date: Tue Mar 31 5:58 AM, 2009

Psych Lit wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe all the attackes on Christian Principles are coming to haunt America. BD reminded me of a blog post I read. Gator

The first order ot things we each should be concerned with is defining just what our principles are as individuals, the second order of things for us should be to believe in the principles we tell others guide our lives, and finally we should make a great effort to allow our pronounced principles to guide our actions.
but what happens when those guiding principles are at odds with others? pronounced principles as a colective?as lesbians this is something that we encounter all of the time isnt it? Not all the time but, too much. if we are fundamentally true to ourselves we are bumping into someone elses principles? Not if we practice what we preach. Public Gay Pride celebrations come to mind. With major supporters being lube companies. Not family friendly IMO.im thinking that the idea of america is that its a place where we can practice those prinicples in private or with our families and keep the boundaries between our values and the values or principles of others. like that old adage, your rights end where mine begin. I was thinkng along the lines of pronounced principles we all share. And, many of those are fundementally Christian. I am a firm believer in following Jesus instruction to "go to your closet to pray" and, such.

e you one who always looks for and takes the exception to a principle? Has your road in life been straight or is it filled with a steady stream of deviations? Do you answer "It all depends," or do you let your judgement founded upon your principles decide what you will do in each circumstance?
By this I mean do you believe your little mind is clearer thinking than the omniscient mind? To put this in as simple a term as possible: DO YOU DO THAT WHICH IS EXPEDIENT OR THAT WHICH IS RIGHT?
im always troubled by this tho. sort of like those old kohlberg ethical problems:
The Heinz Dilemma

Scenario 1

A woman was near death from a unique kind of cancer. There is a drug that might save her. The drug costs $4,000 per dosage. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money and tried every legal means, but he could only get together about $2,000. He asked the doctor scientist who discovered the drug for a discount or let him pay later. But the doctor scientist refused.

Should Heinz break into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?
Scenario 2

Heinz broke into the laboratory and stole the drug. The next day, the newspapers reported the break-in and theft. Brown, a police officer and a friend of Heinz remembered seeing Heinz last evening, behaving suspiciously near the laboratory. Later that night, he saw Heinz running away from the laboratory.

Should Brown report what he saw? Why or why not?
Scenario 3

Officer Brown reported what he saw. Heinz was arrested and brought to court. If convicted, he faces up to two years' jail. Heinz was found guilty.

Should the judge sentence Heinz to prison? Why or why not?

Stages of Moral Reasoning
From his research, he identified six stages of reasoning at three levels.

Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development

Level One:
Pre-conventional Morality Stage 1: Punishment-Obedience Orientation
Stage 2: Instrumental Relativist Orientation
Level Two:
Conventional Morality Stage 3: Good Boy-Nice Girl Orientation
Stage 4: Law and Order Orientation
Level Three:
Post-Conventional Morality Stage 5: Social Contract Orientation
Stage 6: Universal Ethical Principle Orientation

now if one goes with the post conventional morality as being the better of these options it opens up those blanket principles like tho shalt not steal or people who steal should always be prosecuted or sent to jail.
With reason we will continue to evolve on basic principles and, leave individual morality out of it. And, as and, with above, less women imprisonned for killing their abusers less with be jailed for petty offenses.

Now let me throw in here a matter of Principle for all of us to consider because it is relevant to today's trying times.
What follows are the thoughts of an American who has lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years when he was asked by another "Can a Muslim become a good American citizen?"
His reply: "Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
"Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Koran, 2:256).
"Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quarn (Koran).
"Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
"Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
"Politically - no. Because he must submit to mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
"Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
"Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
"Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
"Spiritually - no. Because when we declare, "one nation under God," the Christian/Judeo God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER refered to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names."
Now those are all explanations of the principles Muslims not only believe but live their lives by.

i read something recently having to do with alienation and islam. i wish that i could recall where i read it but basically it stated that islam is a religion of colonization. 85% of those who practice it are not of arabic origin. they must learn to speak the language of another culture, bow toward a far off place etc. it was quite an interesting piece of writing if one considers how colonized peoples the world over have fared.

I'd love to see the article if you find it. It is something I am not sure how to feel. There are several American cities and, a few states as evidence that are colonized and Muslim. Ten Commandments replaced with foot baths. But, also look at New England and, it's direction. Are Gay colonies forming? It has to be more than a foot bath or all female gynocologist to go after because, really neither are bad things or offensive. Gator

Posted to ProBlogs.com on Monday, January 01, 2007
View other posts by WhoAskedYouBill

Psych Lit · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe all the attackes on Christian Principles are coming to haunt America. BD reminded me of a blog post I read. Gator

The first order ot things we each should be concerned with is defining just what our principles are as individuals, the second order of things for us should be to believe in the principles we tell others guide our lives, and finally we should make a great effort to allow our pronounced principles to guide our actions.
but what happens when those guiding principles are at odds with others? as lesbians this is something that we encounter all of the time isnt it? if we are fundamentally true to ourselves we are bumping into someone elses principles? im thinking that the idea of america is that its a place where we can practice those prinicples in private or with our families and keep the boundaries between our values and the values or principles of others. like that old adage, your rights end where mine begin.

e you one who always looks for and takes the exception to a principle? Has your road in life been straight or is it filled with a steady stream of deviations? Do you answer "It all depends," or do you let your judgement founded upon your principles decide what you will do in each circumstance?
By this I mean do you believe your little mind is clearer thinking than the omniscient mind? To put this in as simple a term as possible: DO YOU DO THAT WHICH IS EXPEDIENT OR THAT WHICH IS RIGHT?
im always troubled by this tho. sort of like those old kohlberg ethical problems:
The Heinz Dilemma

Scenario 1

A woman was near death from a unique kind of cancer. There is a drug that might save her. The drug costs $4,000 per dosage. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money and tried every legal means, but he could only get together about $2,000. He asked the doctor scientist who discovered the drug for a discount or let him pay later. But the doctor scientist refused.

Should Heinz break into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?
Scenario 2

Heinz broke into the laboratory and stole the drug. The next day, the newspapers reported the break-in and theft. Brown, a police officer and a friend of Heinz remembered seeing Heinz last evening, behaving suspiciously near the laboratory. Later that night, he saw Heinz running away from the laboratory.

Should Brown report what he saw? Why or why not?
Scenario 3

Officer Brown reported what he saw. Heinz was arrested and brought to court. If convicted, he faces up to two years' jail. Heinz was found guilty.

Should the judge sentence Heinz to prison? Why or why not?

Stages of Moral Reasoning
From his research, he identified six stages of reasoning at three levels.

Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development

Level One:
Pre-conventional Morality Stage 1: Punishment-Obedience Orientation
Stage 2: Instrumental Relativist Orientation
Level Two:
Conventional Morality Stage 3: Good Boy-Nice Girl Orientation
Stage 4: Law and Order Orientation
Level Three:
Post-Conventional Morality Stage 5: Social Contract Orientation
Stage 6: Universal Ethical Principle Orientation

now if one goes with the post conventional morality as being the better of these options it opens up those blanket principles like tho shalt not steal or people who steal should always be prosecuted or sent to jail.

Now let me throw in here a matter of Principle for all of us to consider because it is relevant to today's trying times.
What follows are the thoughts of an American who has lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years when he was asked by another "Can a Muslim become a good American citizen?"
His reply: "Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
"Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Koran, 2:256).
"Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quarn (Koran).
"Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
"Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
"Politically - no. Because he must submit to mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
"Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
"Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
"Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
"Spiritually - no. Because when we declare, "one nation under God," the Christian/Judeo God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER refered to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names."
Now those are all explanations of the principles Muslims not only believe but live their lives by.

i read something recently having to do with alienation and islam. i wish that i could recall where i read it but basically it stated that islam is a religion of colonization. 85% of those who practice it are not of arabic origin. they must learn to speak the language of another culture, bow toward a far off place etc. it was quite an interesting piece of writing if one considers how colonized peoples the world over have fared.

Posted to ProBlogs.com on Monday, January 01, 2007
View other posts by WhoAskedYouBill

Psych Lit · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

I still really like the Aussie approach. You don't like out modus operandi? 1) why'd you move here? 2) get the f*ck out.

i rather favor that approach too tho its probably too late for some of those michigan communities. i think the last part of that article was telling in that these folks like the us because of the exisiting intrusion of religion on other areas of life. utah for example. i wonder what its like to live in a state where there is such a blur between the majority religion and other aspects of daily life?

Psych Lit · Guru

MyCat8it wrote:

I don't get this. I mean, I don't understand why we do this. This is a country founded on religious freedom, right? By all means, live your life and worship however you see fit.

However, I may not be a member of your religion, and I should not be expected to understand your rituals or bend over backwards to make sure your beliefs are carried out according to a book I never read. I would not force you to sell Yule Logs, or ask you to accommodate an Ostara ritual, and I require the same from you.

The federal government has appointed certain days as national holidays. We may not agree with all of them, but we recognize them as a country. When you live here or become citizens here, you are signing on to recognize these same holidays. Plan your vacations accordingly.
im no legal expert fer sure. i wonder what happens in these communities when the majority of residents are from islamic countries? when they elect, say, a city council and pass ordinances that have religious overtones are they legal? im all for reasonable accomodation, people who observe particular days might opt to have the day off without pay or can take a floating holiday or something. i grew up in a community that was predominantly jewish. during the jewish holidays the schools and offices were open as usual but jewish students had the days off as "excused" absences. i dont have a problem with that. its the sharia law aspect of communities and the places where that law is at odds with the us constitution with respect to women for instance.

Date: Mon Mar 30 10:33 AM, 2009

BoxDog wrote:

MyCat8it wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

as mentioned in the article many european countries are having difficulties with this same issue. an article in yesterdays nytimes speaks of hospitals in michigan having to have all female obgyns on staff due to the large population of muslims. harvard had to change their pool schedule to accomodate requests by female muslims for female only times. people who practice other religions are expected to adapt to the culture at large and yet we bend over backward to accomodate people of muslim faith. why would we take someone to court to take down a creche in a public space and yet install ritual footbaths in another public space?

I don't get this. I mean, I don't understand why we do this. This is a country founded on religious freedom, right? By all means, live your life and worship however you see fit.

However, I may not be a member of your religion, and I should not be expected to understand your rituals or bend over backwards to make sure your beliefs are carried out according to a book I never read. I would not force you to sell Yule Logs, or ask you to accommodate an Ostara ritual, and I require the same from you.

The federal government has appointed certain days as national holidays. We may not agree with all of them, but we recognize them as a country. When you live here or become citizens here, you are signing on to recognize these same holidays. Plan your vacations accordingly.

I still really like the Aussie approach. You don't like out modus operandi? 1) why'd you move here? 2) get the f*ck out.

Maybe all the attackes on Christian Principles are coming to haunt America. BD reminded me of a blog post I read. Gator

Let me talk a bit about Principles By

Before I get started let me mention here that there will be times, like this past week, when business and medical reasons will interfer with my posting daily or maybe even for several days at a time but like the proverbial bad penny rest assured I will turn up again.

Hold on a minute while I pour myself a brandy to enjoy while working on this post. There.

Now why at this time would I want to talk about principles? Simple, because I believe the subject to be relevant to what is going on not only in this country but the world at this time. We have an election only a few months away; we have Democrat's and, yes, some Republican's too, in Congress who seem to be having a problem with our coming together as one people of common purpose united behind our President in the war on terrorism. Why? Well my guess is because they see division as a tool to either regain the Alpha Political position and/or as a tool to achieve either personal gain or power for themselves. Such are selfish motives which are opposed to the principle of acting in the best interest of the majority and/or nation.

There are certain axioms present in our minds which we should allow guide our lives: one is honesty is the best policy; another, courage is power; practice makes perfect; and truth eventually wills out, to site but a few more.

The first order ot things we each should be concerned with is defining just what our principles are as individuals, the second order of things for us should be to believe in the principles we tell others guide our lives, and finally we should make a great effort to allow our pronounced principles to guide our actions.

Fools believe in principles when they see it is advantageous to them to do so. A reasonable man believes in a principle when he can neither see or touch it because he is aware the power of his faith in his principles will work for him even in the dark of night.

Real men believe in and practice honesty even when it is evident to them that to lie and cheat would be profitable because their principles make them aware that good will overcome evil even in the face of false remedies or cruel punishments.

Men of principle steer straight courses in life while shrewd men, men of expediency, are coasters in life who wander aimlessly about looking to trick, fool, or dodge life's tribulations. Such men are life's runners.

Those whose lives are founded upon principles will find their lives grow richer and stronger for having them. When is the last time you took stock of your principles? Are you living your life by your stated principles or ignoring them in favor of whatever benefits you the most at the moment? Have you ever thought that your happiness and usefulness grow out of your principle beliefs and practices?

Are you one who always looks for and takes the exception to a principle? Has your road in life been straight or is it filled with a steady stream of deviations? Do you answer "It all depends," or do you let your judgement founded upon your principles decide what you will do in each circumstance?

By this I mean do you believe your little mind is clearer thinking than the omniscient mind? To put this in as simple a term as possible: DO YOU DO THAT WHICH IS EXPEDIENT OR THAT WHICH IS RIGHT?

You do realize that men without principles are life's wind driven chaff?

Now let me throw in here a matter of Principle for all of us to consider because it is relevant to today's trying times.

What follows are the thoughts of an American who has lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years when he was asked by another "Can a Muslim become a good American citizen?"

His reply: "Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

"Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Koran, 2:256).

"Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quarn (Koran).

"Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

"Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

"Politically - no. Because he must submit to mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

"Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

"Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

"Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

"Spiritually - no. Because when we declare, "one nation under God," the Christian/Judeo God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER refered to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names."

Now those are all explanations of the principles Muslims not only believe but live their lives by.

Australia has the right idea, they let the Muslim community there know that if they can't acknowledge Australia's laws and way of life as being theirs then it's "Katy unbar the door and out they go. And if their mullah's preach otherwise than they get the boot, also."

Now, I ask, as an American, what are your principles? SYOTB

Posted to ProBlogs.com on Monday, January 01, 2007
View other posts by WhoAskedYouBill

BoxDog · Guru

MyCat8it wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

as mentioned in the article many european countries are having difficulties with this same issue. an article in yesterdays nytimes speaks of hospitals in michigan having to have all female obgyns on staff due to the large population of muslims. harvard had to change their pool schedule to accomodate requests by female muslims for female only times. people who practice other religions are expected to adapt to the culture at large and yet we bend over backward to accomodate people of muslim faith. why would we take someone to court to take down a creche in a public space and yet install ritual footbaths in another public space?

I don't get this. I mean, I don't understand why we do this. This is a country founded on religious freedom, right? By all means, live your life and worship however you see fit.

However, I may not be a member of your religion, and I should not be expected to understand your rituals or bend over backwards to make sure your beliefs are carried out according to a book I never read. I would not force you to sell Yule Logs, or ask you to accommodate an Ostara ritual, and I require the same from you.

The federal government has appointed certain days as national holidays. We may not agree with all of them, but we recognize them as a country. When you live here or become citizens here, you are signing on to recognize these same holidays. Plan your vacations accordingly.

I still really like the Aussie approach. You don't like out modus operandi? 1) why'd you move here? 2) get the f*ck out.

MyCat8it · Senior Member

Psych Lit wrote:

as mentioned in the article many european countries are having difficulties with this same issue. an article in yesterdays nytimes speaks of hospitals in michigan having to have all female obgyns on staff due to the large population of muslims. harvard had to change their pool schedule to accomodate requests by female muslims for female only times. people who practice other religions are expected to adapt to the culture at large and yet we bend over backward to accomodate people of muslim faith. why would we take someone to court to take down a creche in a public space and yet install ritual footbaths in another public space?

I don't get this. I mean, I don't understand why we do this. This is a country founded on religious freedom, right? By all means, live your life and worship however you see fit.

However, I may not be a member of your religion, and I should not be expected to understand your rituals or bend over backwards to make sure your beliefs are carried out according to a book I never read. I would not force you to sell Yule Logs, or ask you to accommodate an Ostara ritual, and I require the same from you.

The federal government has appointed certain days as national holidays. We may not agree with all of them, but we recognize them as a country. When you live here or become citizens here, you are signing on to recognize these same holidays. Plan your vacations accordingly.

Psych Lit · Guru

as mentioned in the article many european countries are having difficulties with this same issue. an article in yesterdays nytimes speaks of hospitals in michigan having to have all female obgyns on staff due to the large population of muslims. harvard had to change their pool schedule to accomodate requests by female muslims for female only times. people who practice other religions are expected to adapt to the culture at large and yet we bend over backward to accomodate people of muslim faith. why would we take someone to court to take down a creche in a public space and yet install ritual footbaths in another public space?

Islamic Law's Influence in America a Growing Concern

Sunday, March 29, 2009
By David Lewkowict

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As America's Muslim population grows, so too does the influence of Islamic law, or Shariah, in daily life in the U.S.

"Shariah Law is the totality of the Muslim's obligation," said Abdullahi An-Na'im, a professor of law at Emory University in Atlanta. According to An-Na'im, Shariah is similar to Jewish Talmudic Law or Catholic Canon Law in that it guides an adherent's moral conduct.

"As a citizen, I am a subject of the United States," An-Na'im said. "I owe allegiance to the United States, to the Constitution of the United States. That is not inconsistent with observing a religious code in terms of my own personal behavior."

While many view this as a testament to the "great American melting pot," others see Islamic law's growing influence as a threat. Shariah's critics point to cases such as the airport in Minneapolis, where some Shariah-adherent taxi drivers made headlines in 2006 for refusing to pick up passengers they suspected of carrying liquor. The drivers' aversion to alcohol stemmed from a verse in the Qur'an that describes "intoxicants and gambling" as "an abomination of Satan's handiwork."

Last year, a Tyson Foods plant in Shelbyville, Tenn. replaced its traditional Labor Day holiday with paid time off on Eid al-Fitr, the Muslim festival marking the end of fasting during Ramadan. A labor union had requested the change on behalf of hundreds of Muslim employees many of them were immigrants from Somalia.

But public outcry over the decision to dismiss Labor Day quickly prompted the company and union to negotiate a new contract that makes accommodations for both holidays.

In 2007, the University of Michigan installed ritual foot baths to accommodate Islamic tradition. "These things are beginning to percolate up as Shariah-adherent Muslims insist that their preferences and practices be accommodated by the rest of the population," said Frank Gaffney, founder and president of the Center for Security Policy a Washington think tank.

Gaffney predicted the U.S. could soon face problems similar to some Western European countries, where the religious values of Muslim immigrants sometimes clash with their highly secular host cultures.

But Professor An-Na'im believes it will be different in America. "The variety of American secularism which is much more receptive of public displays of religion and a public role for religion is, in fact, more conducive for Muslims to be citizens and to be comfortable with their religious values and citizenship than European countries," An-Na'im said.

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