nesea wrote:

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Owl is right .. it does turn your stomach and I too am thankful that the bush rein of terror has ended.

So let me ask you psych lit .. out of curiousity ... if you were the one that rec'd the memo that said "go ahead .. torture them" .. would you have carried out your orders?

i dont think so. i dont think any of us can say with certainty that we would or wouldnt act in particular ways when we havent been privy to the same info that those who made the decisions were given. that said id perhaps go with a dosing of the scopolomine but thats where id draw the line. i think that people in pain will say whatever they have to say to make it stop and who knows how valuable that info is? but if they are in a dream state and not aware of what they are saying? hey that might produce some useful info.  and yeah i know there are sometimes adverse effects of that medication but if if i thought i had one day to find out where the nuke was buried id prolly give that a try. what i wouldnt do if waterboard, drill teeth, pull out fingernails or other acts of pain. that i can say with almost certainty. were i queen of the world tho i never would have done what bush did. i viewed 911 as a law enforcement issue rather than an act of ideologicial warfare. i would have asked the military to hunt the perps down and bring them to justice. i would not have done a preemptive strike on iraq to make them the centerpiece of my own democratic vision. i think history will conclude that bush did as much to exascerbate this sitauation as did al queda.

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Anonymous wrote:

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journalist? why is he silent on darfur? and why is he reluctant to call what happened to the armenians genocide?

I think he has become forceful enough and, hinted to drop Diplomacy efforts with them unless they re consider her being charged as a spy. What kind of force do you want? None of us know what talks and fact finding is going on. I think he spoke out against it timely enough and, there is pressure from within Iran as a result.  Gator

his first offering on this was that he was disappointed, hes moved up to gravely concerned.. i guess im thinking that when money is involved we bring out, literally, the big guns and we go in and get the job done. with the pirate situation there were offers to mediate that crisis and they nixed that and we went in and blew them away. why the kid gloves with north korea and iran? the answer to that is probably nukes and on the face of that it appears to be reasonable but by not using all diplomatic means with the situation off somalia we run the risk of increasing the radical element in that country and making a serious problem worse. imo consistent action allows all of these actors to know what will happen and may minimize the chances of them pursuing these options.

President Barack Obama
said Sunday he was "gravely concerned" about Saberi's safety and
well-being and was confident she wasn't involved in espionage. The U.S.
has called the charges baseless and said Iran would gain U.S. goodwill
if it "responded in a positive way" to the case. new york post

As far as buying the wine, I don't know the law for that there but, I certainly would not go into a land known for harsh laws and abuse one. Gator

im thinking they would have found some other reason to arrest her. shes being used by iran to bait a response.

As the speech indicated, Dafur is something he is mindful of. I'm sure he will be attacked for evoking it at a holocaust gathering. We are so broke here though that I have had an attitude swing and, feel the most should be spent on our own and the incredible violence and, abuse our Country is experiencing. Seems he has Kerry on it as we speak.  That aside and, our Countrys shape he juggles his words wisely I think. How many tea baggers do you think would praise him for making some of these urgent issues and, home matters having less TV time? Gator

i feel for the guy really. i cant imagine what his days must be like. i cant recall a time in my lifetime when so many things were going wrong. on the whole i think hes doing a good job. the places where i dont have to do with his flip flopping on issues or being inconsistant. like with the prosecution possibilities of the last administration. its hard to get a handle on whats going on because he seemingly changes his mind a lot. i think that must be confusing for the rest of the world too and they look to his words and actions for signals.

Some Darfur aid to resume, but rebels must talk peace: Kerry

Apr 16, 2009

The
United States has termed the killings in Darfur as genocide. The region
plunged into civil war in 2004 after ethnic rebels took up arms against
the Arab-dominated Khartoum government, complaining of discrimination.

Beshir has denied the ICC's charges against him, and Sudan says 10,000 people have died in the conflict.Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved.

Most recent reluctant but, for good reason I think. His comments after were enough for me and, I am sure his words are still as honest as I first believed.  Write and remind him Psych. He carries 10 letters a day from Americans and reads them. Gator

oh i understand why he wavers. hes thinking of our relationship with turkey from the standpoint of military alliances. i get that. my thinking is that he, and we as a nation really, need to figure out what we believe to be true, locate our moral compass, and act in that way in an unflinching manner. imo that is the only way that we might end some of the baiting, some of the provocative violence that happens.

"I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide." Obama

was the above from today?

More »

< Back to Front Page Text size +

Obama's choice on Armenia

Email|Link|Comments (15) Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor April 24, 2009 09:44 AM

Will he or won't he -- declare the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians a genocide, that is?

President Obama today is to issue the annual presidential statement marking the 94th remembrance day for the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War I -- what most scholars consider the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, steadfastly denies that a genocide occurred, arguing the death toll has been vastly inflated and that blaming civil war and unrest.

During his campaign, President Obama described the deaths as a genocide. But during his high-profile visit earlier this month to Turkey -- now a crucial US ally -- he shied away from using that description.

"History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future," he told the Turkish parliament. "I know there's strong views in this chamber about the terrible events of 1915. And while there's been a good deal of commentary about my views, it's really about how the Turkish and Armenian people deal with the past. And the best way forward for the Turkish and Armenian people is a process that works through the past in a way that is honest, open and constructive."

However, when pressed by a reporter about using the word "genocide," Obama replied, "Well, my views are on the record and I have not changed those views."

The issue is life-or-death for Amenian- and Turkish-Americans, and both sides have an army of lobbyists in Washington pressing their case. The Hill newspaper reports today that a bill for the United States to formally recognize the deaths as a genocide has passed the 100-cosponsor mark.

Turkey and Armenia have no diplomatic ties, but they jointly announced on Wednesday that they were getting close to a reconciliation.

"We've already seen historic and courageous steps taken by Turkish and Armenian leaders," Obama told the Turkish parliament. "These contacts hold out the promise of a new day. An open border would return the Turkish and Armenian people to a peaceful and prosperous coexistence that would serve both of your nations. So I want you to know that the United States strongly supports the full normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia. It is a cause worth working towards."

 

 

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Psych Lit wrote:

---

 

why has he not been more forceful with the iranians with respect to the falsely imprisoned american journalist?

It is thought that the women were researching North Korean refugees

Two US reporters held in North Korea earlier this month will be tried for illegal entry and "hostile acts", the country's state-run news agency says.

The Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said preparations were under way for indictments and a trial.

Euna Lee and Laura Ling were detained on 17 March on North Korea's border with China.

The move comes amid growing tension in the region ahead of North Korea's controversial satellite launch.

The North says the launch is part of its communications programme, but the US fears this is a cover for testing long-range missile technology.

The United States says it is pursuing all diplomatic means available to secure the release of the two American women.

Confusion

"The illegal entry of US reporters into the DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea) and their suspected hostile acts have been confirmed by evidence and their statements," the KCNA said.

It said "a competent organ... is carrying on its investigation and, at the same time, making a preparation for indicting them at a trial on the basis of the already confirmed suspicions".

Euna Lee, a Korean-American, and Laura Ling, a Chinese-American, work for Current TV in California.

There is still some confusion as to exactly where the reporters were arrested.

South Korean television station YTN and unnamed diplomatic sources said that North Korean guards crossed the Tumen river into Chinese territory to arrest the journalists.

Pyongyang says the reporters crossed its border illegally.

Diplomacy

"The United States continues to work on this matter through diplomatic channels," an unnamed senior White House official told the AFP news agency.

"We have seen the brief North Korean press report (on the trial)," the official is quoted as saying. "We have no higher priority than the protection of American citizens abroad."

The US state department said a Swedish envoy acting on behalf of Washington, which has no diplomatic relations with Pyongyang, had visited the journalists for the first time over the weekend.

"A representative of the Swedish embassy met with each one individually," spokesman Gordon Duguid said. He gave no further details of the women's condition or where they were being held.

North Korea has in the past freed Americans it has detained but only after diplomatic intervention.

The Committee to Protect Journalists issued a statement expressing concern about the North's action against the reporters.

Psych Lit wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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President Obama's Remarks at the Holocaust Days of Remembrance Ceremony

I believe we start by doing what we are doing today -- by bearing witness, by fighting the silence that is evil's greatest co-conspirator. -obama

 

this is a beautiful speech. words can influence many. unfortunately the political reality for obama is that he is often unable to match those words with actions. why has he not been more forceful with the iranians with respect to the falsely imprisoned american journalist? why is he silent on darfur? and why is he reluctant to call what happened to the armenians genocide?

I think he has become forceful enough and, hinted to drop Diplomacy efforts with them unless they re consider her being charged as a spy. What kind of force do you want? None of us know what talks and fact finding is going on. I think he spoke out against it timely enough and, there is pressure from within Iran as a result.  Gator

President Barack Obama
said Sunday he was "gravely concerned" about Saberi's safety and
well-being and was confident she wasn't involved in espionage. The U.S.
has called the charges baseless and said Iran would gain U.S. goodwill
if it "responded in a positive way" to the case. new york post

As far as buying the wine, I don't know the law for that there but, I certainly would not go into a land known for harsh laws and abuse one. Gator

As the speech indicated, Dafur is something he is mindful of. I'm sure he will be attacked for evoking it at a holocaust gathering. We are so broke here though that I have had an attitude swing and, feel the most should be spent on our own and the incredible violence and, abuse our Country is experiencing. Seems he has Kerry on it as we speak.  That aside and, our Countrys shape he juggles his words wisely I think. How many tea baggers do you think would praise him for making some of these urgent issues and, home matters having less TV time? Gator

Some Darfur aid to resume, but rebels must talk peace: Kerry

Apr 16, 2009

KHARTOUM (AFP) US Senator John Kerry Thursday urged rebels in
Darfur to engage in peace talks with Khartoum and announced the partial
resumption of aid, frozen after Sudan's decision to expel foreign aid
groups.

"What encouraged me today was the fact that every member
of the government told me that they are ready to come to the table now
with respect to peace discussions and achieving peace in Darfur," Kerry
said.

"Bbut we all recognized that the rebels must also do the
same," he added after talks with Sudan's second vice president Ali
Osman Mohammed Taha.

Kerry, chairman of the US senate foreign
relations committee, is making a three-day visit to Sudan -- the second
by a US official since the International Criminal Court issued an
arrest warrant for President Omar al-Beshir for alleged war crimes in
Darfur.

The senator and one-time US presidential hopeful also
said that some humanitarian aid for Darfur would be restored, but
underlined that this in itself was not enough.

"Darfur, as we all know all have been at the center of events that have been defining Sudan for the world," he said.

"It
is also been the scene of the world largest humanitarian efforts
supported by the United States and carried out by many dedicated
Sudanese and international humanitarian organizations."

Kerry
said that, following Khartoum's decision to "engage in a new dialogue
with us, some of that capacity for the humanitarian assistance will be
restored."

But he stressed: "A partial restoration of capacity is not sufficient. A humanitarian crisis is a humanitarian crisis."

Kerry's
three-day visit will take him to Darfur, where a civil war that began
in 2003 has resulted in the deaths of about 300,000 people, according
to the United Nations.

Kerry's trip came a week after a visit by
the US special envoy to Sudan, Scott Gration. His agenda included
meetings with advisors to Beshir and to Vice President Ali Osman Taha.

During
his visit, Gration had said the United States wanted to strengthen its
ties with Sudan, but he warned of an impending crisis after Sudan
expelled 13 foreign aid groups from Darfur.

Khartoum alleges that the groups had cooperated with the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Kerry will not meet with Beshir during his visit, officials have said.

US President Barack Obama had condemned the expulsions of the relief groups.

His
administration has said that Beshir should be held accountable but that
the United States, which is not a signatory to the treaty which created
the ICC, is not obliged to arrest him.

Relations between the US
and Beshir have been strained. The United States imposed sanctions
against in 1997 against Sudan for harbouring Al-Qaida leader Osama Bin
Laden.

It bombed a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan a year later, saying the site was used to make chemical weapons.

The
United States has termed the killings in Darfur as genocide. The region
plunged into civil war in 2004 after ethnic rebels took up arms against
the Arab-dominated Khartoum government, complaining of discrimination.

Beshir has denied the ICC's charges against him, and Sudan says 10,000 people have died in the conflict.Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved.

Most recent reluctant but, for good reason I think. His comments after were enough for me and, I am sure his words are still as honest as I first believed.  Write and remind him Psych. He carries 10 letters a day from Americans and reads them. Gator

"I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide." Obama

More »

< Back to Front Page Text size +

Obama's choice on Armenia

Email|Link|Comments (15) Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor April 24, 2009 09:44 AM

Will he or won't he -- declare the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians a genocide, that is?

President Obama today is to issue the annual presidential statement marking the 94th remembrance day for the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War I -- what most scholars consider the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, steadfastly denies that a genocide occurred, arguing the death toll has been vastly inflated and that blaming civil war and unrest.

During his campaign, President Obama described the deaths as a genocide. But during his high-profile visit earlier this month to Turkey -- now a crucial US ally -- he shied away from using that description.

"History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future," he told the Turkish parliament. "I know there's strong views in this chamber about the terrible events of 1915. And while there's been a good deal of commentary about my views, it's really about how the Turkish and Armenian people deal with the past. And the best way forward for the Turkish and Armenian people is a process that works through the past in a way that is honest, open and constructive."

However, when pressed by a reporter about using the word "genocide," Obama replied, "Well, my views are on the record and I have not changed those views."

The issue is life-or-death for Amenian- and Turkish-Americans, and both sides have an army of lobbyists in Washington pressing their case. The Hill newspaper reports today that a bill for the United States to formally recognize the deaths as a genocide has passed the 100-cosponsor mark.

Turkey and Armenia have no diplomatic ties, but they jointly announced on Wednesday that they were getting close to a reconciliation.

"We've already seen historic and courageous steps taken by Turkish and Armenian leaders," Obama told the Turkish parliament. "These contacts hold out the promise of a new day. An open border would return the Turkish and Armenian people to a peaceful and prosperous coexistence that would serve both of your nations. So I want you to know that the United States strongly supports the full normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia. It is a cause worth working towards."

 

 

---

Anonymous wrote:

---

 

President Obama's Remarks at the Holocaust Days of Remembrance Ceremony

I believe we start by doing what we are doing today -- by bearing witness, by fighting the silence that is evil's greatest co-conspirator. -obama

 

this is a beautiful speech. words can influence many. unfortunately the political reality for obama is that he is often unable to match those words with actions. why has he not been more forceful with the iranians with respect to the falsely imprisoned american journalist? why is he silent on darfur? and why is he reluctant to call what happened to the armenians genocide?

< Back to Front Page Text size +

Obama's choice on Armenia

Email|Link|Comments (15) Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor April 24, 2009 09:44 AM

Will he or won't he -- declare the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians a genocide, that is?

President Obama today is to issue the annual presidential statement marking the 94th remembrance day for the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War I -- what most scholars consider the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, steadfastly denies that a genocide occurred, arguing the death toll has been vastly inflated and that blaming civil war and unrest.

During his campaign, President Obama described the deaths as a genocide. But during his high-profile visit earlier this month to Turkey -- now a crucial US ally -- he shied away from using that description.

"History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future," he told the Turkish parliament. "I know there's strong views in this chamber about the terrible events of 1915. And while there's been a good deal of commentary about my views, it's really about how the Turkish and Armenian people deal with the past. And the best way forward for the Turkish and Armenian people is a process that works through the past in a way that is honest, open and constructive."

However, when pressed by a reporter about using the word "genocide," Obama replied, "Well, my views are on the record and I have not changed those views."

The issue is life-or-death for Amenian- and Turkish-Americans, and both sides have an army of lobbyists in Washington pressing their case. The Hill newspaper reports today that a bill for the United States to formally recognize the deaths as a genocide has passed the 100-cosponsor mark.

Turkey and Armenia have no diplomatic ties, but they jointly announced on Wednesday that they were getting close to a reconciliation.

"We've already seen historic and courageous steps taken by Turkish and Armenian leaders," Obama told the Turkish parliament. "These contacts hold out the promise of a new day. An open border would return the Turkish and Armenian people to a peaceful and prosperous coexistence that would serve both of your nations. So I want you to know that the United States strongly supports the full normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia. It is a cause worth working towards."

 

President Obama's Remarks at the Holocaust Days of Remembrance Ceremony

April 23, 2009

United States Capitol
Washington, D.C.

12:04 P.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you.  Please be seated.  Thank you very much.  To Sara Bloomfield, for the wonderful introduction and the outstanding work she's doing; to Fred Zeidman; Joel Geiderman; Mr. Wiesel -- thank you for your wisdom and your witness; Speaker Nancy Pelosi; Senator Dick Durbin; members of Congress; our good friend the Ambassador of Israel; members of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council; and most importantly, the survivors and rescuers and their families who are here today.  It is a great honor for me to be here, and I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to address you briefly.

We gather today to mourn the loss of so many lives, and celebrate those who saved them; honor those who survived, and contemplate the obligations of the living.

It is the grimmest of ironies that one of the most savage, barbaric acts of evil in history began in one of the most modernized societies of its time, where so many markers of human progress became tools of human depravity:  science that can heal used to kill; education that can enlighten used to rationalize away basic moral impulses; the bureaucracy that sustains modern life used as the machinery of mass death -- a ruthless, chillingly efficient system where many were responsible for the killing, but few got actual blood on their hands. 

While the uniqueness of the Holocaust in scope and in method is truly astounding, the Holocaust was driven by many of the same forces that have fueled atrocities throughout history:  the scapegoating that leads to hatred and blinds us to our common humanity; the justifications that replace conscience and allow cruelty to spread; the willingness of those who are neither perpetrators nor victims to accept the assigned role of bystander, believing the lie that good people are ever powerless or alone, the fiction that we do not have a choice.

But while we are here today to bear witness to the human capacity to destroy, we are also here to pay tribute to the human impulse to save.  In the moral accounting of the Holocaust, as we reckon with numbers like 6 million, as we recall the horror of numbers etched into arms, we also factor in numbers like these: 7,200 -- the number of Danish Jews ferried to safety, many of whom later returned home to find the neighbors who rescued them had also faithfully tended their homes and businesses and belongings while they were gone.

We remember the number five -- the five righteous men and women who join us today from Poland .  We are awed by your acts of courage and conscience.  And your presence today compels each of us to ask ourselves whether we would have done what you did.  We can only hope that the answer is yes.

We also remember the number 5,000 -- the number of Jews rescued by the villagers of Le Chambon , France -- one life saved for each of its 5,000 residents.  Not a single Jew who came there was turned away, or turned in.  But it was not until decades later that the villagers spoke of what they had done -- and even then, only reluctantly.  The author of a book on the rescue found that those he interviewed were baffled by his interest.  "How could you call us 'good'?" they said.  "We were doing what had to be done."

That is the question of the righteous -- those who would do extraordinary good at extraordinary risk not for affirmation or acclaim or to advance their own interests, but because it is what must be done.  They remind us that no one is born a savior or a murderer -- these are choices we each have the power to make.  They teach us that no one can make us into bystanders without our consent, and that we are never truly alone -- that if we have the courage to heed that "still, small voice" within us, we can form a minyan for righteousness that can span a village, even a nation. 

Their legacy is our inheritance.  And the question is, how do we honor and preserve it?  How do we ensure that "never again" isn't an empty slogan, or merely an aspiration, but also a call to action? 

I believe we start by doing what we are doing today -- by bearing witness, by fighting the silence that is evil's greatest co-conspirator.

In the face of horrors that defy comprehension, the impulse to silence is understandable.  My own great uncle returned from his service in World War II in a state of shock, saying little, alone with painful memories that would not leave his head.  He went up into the attic, according to the stories that I've heard, and wouldn't come down for six months.  He was one of the liberators -- someone who at a very tender age had seen the unimaginable.  And so some of the liberators who are here today honor us with their presence -- all of whom we honor for their extraordinary service.  My great uncle was part of the 89th Infantry Division -- the first Americans to reach a Nazi concentration camp.  And they liberated Ohrdruf, part of Buchenwald , where tens of thousands had perished.

The story goes that when the Americans marched in, they discovered the starving survivors and the piles of dead bodies.  And General Eisenhower made a decision.  He ordered Germans from the nearby town to tour the camp, so they could see what had been done in their name.  And he ordered American troops to tour the camp, so they could see the evil they were fighting against.  Then he invited congressmen and journalists to bear witness.  And he ordered that photographs and films be made.  Some of us have seen those same images, whether in the Holocaust Museum or when I visited Yad Vashem, and they never leave you.  Eisenhower said that he wanted "to be in a position to give firsthand evidence of these things, if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to propaganda." 

Eisenhower understood the danger of silence.  He understood that if no one knew what had happened, that would be yet another atrocity -- and it would be the perpetrators' ultimate triumph. 

What Eisenhower did to record these crimes for history is what we are doing here today.  That's what Elie Wiesel and the survivors we honor here do by fighting to make their memories part of our collective memory.  That's what the Holocaust Museum does every day on our National Mall, the place where we display for the world our triumphs and failures and the lessons we've learned from our history.  It's the very opposite of silence. 

But we must also remember that bearing witness is not the end of our obligation -- it's just the beginning.  We know that evil has yet to run its course on Earth.  We've seen it in this century in the mass graves and the ashes of villages burned to the ground, and children used as soldiers and rape used as a weapon of war.  To this day, there are those who insist the Holocaust never happened; who perpetrate every form of intolerance -- racism and anti-Semitism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism, and more -- hatred that degrades its victim and diminishes us all. 

Today, and every day, we have an opportunity, as well as an obligation, to confront these scourges -- to fight the impulse to turn the channel when we see images that disturb us, or wrap ourselves in the false comfort that others' sufferings are not our own.  Instead we have the opportunity to make a habit of empathy; to recognize ourselves in each other; to commit ourselves to resisting injustice and intolerance and indifference in whatever forms they may take -- whether confronting those who tell lies about history, or doing everything we can to prevent and end atrocities like those that took place in Rwanda, those taking place in Darfur.  That is my commitment as President.  I hope that is yours, as well. 

It will not be easy.  At times, fulfilling these obligations require self-reflection.  But in the final analysis, I believe history gives us cause for hope rather than despair -- the hope of a chosen people who have overcome oppression since the days of Exodus; of the nation of Israel rising from the destruction of the Holocaust; of the strong and enduring bonds between our nations. 

It is the hope, too, of those who not only survived, but chose to live, teaching us the meaning of courage and resilience and dignity.  I'm thinking today of a study conducted after the war that found that Holocaust survivors living in America actually had a higher birthrate than American Jews.  What a stunning act of faith -- to bring a child in a world that has shown you so much cruelty; to believe that no matter what you have endured, or how much you have lost, in the end, you have a duty to life.

We find cause for hope as well in Protestant and Catholic children attending school together in Northern Ireland; in Hutus and Tutsis living side by side, forgiving neighbors who have done the unforgivable; in a movement to save Darfur that has thousands of high school and college chapters in 25 countries, and brought 70,000 people to the Washington Mall -- people of every age and faith and background and race united in common cause with suffering brothers and sisters halfway around the world.  

Those numbers can be our future -- our fellow citizens of the world showing us how to make the journey from oppression to survival, from witness to resistance, and ultimately to reconciliation.  That is what we mean when we say "never again."

So today, during this season when we celebrate liberation, resurrection, and the possibility of redemption, may each of us renew our resolve to do what must be done.  And may we strive each day, both individually and as a nation, to be among the righteous.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

Psych Lit wrote:

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and heres a timely story that concerns the idea of moral indifference. mia farrow is beginning a long hunger strike to try and get someone, anyone, to pay attention to the crisis in darfur. 

Mia Farrow to start hunger strike over Darfur

12 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AFP) Mia Farrow is to start a hunger strike next week in a bid to draw attention to the humanitarian crisis in the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan, a statement on the actress's website said Thursday.

The 64-year-old said from Monday she would begin a water-only fast as a gesture of solidarity and as "a personal expression of outrage" at deaths from starvation, thirst and disease in Darfur.

Farrow said her fast was prompted by the Sudanese government's expulsion of 13 international aid groups from the region last month. Farrow called on world leaders to pressure Sudan into reversing the decision.

"I undertake this fast in the heartfelt hope that world leaders who know what is just and right will call upon the Government of Sudan to urgently readmit all of the expelled agencies," said Farrow.

Farrow told People magazine she had set herself a target of three weeks.

"I am going to get my blood tested after two weeks and if there is organ damage, I will have to stop," she said.

Farrow, a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, is one of several celebrities who have campaigned relentlessly to draw attention to the conflict in Darfur.

The United Nations says 300,000 people have died -- many from disease and hunger -- and 2.7 million have been made homeless by the Darfur conflict which erupted in 2003. Khartoum puts the death toll at 10,000.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved. More »

-- Edited by Psych Lit on Thursday 23rd of April 2009 11:13:55 PM

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one of the members of my BoD has made several trips to darfar in the last two years ... each time smuggling in medicine with him. He's organized countless community meetings here and enlisted the help of many local professionals to aide him in his mission of helping there.

Are we saying that b/c our government hasn't taken an active role in forcing the Sudenese government to accept the relief offered,  that the world is indifferent to the plight of these people? Because I don't think that's true.

Were the population of the world not offended and outraged by the situation there ... that would be indifference .. imo.

Play video

(NECN/ABC) - The parents and fiance of an American journalist convicted of espionage and sentenced to eight years in prison by Iran, are holding onto hope.

There is some talk that the verdict against Roxana Saberi may be overturned.

But in an exclusive interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, Iran's President would give no guarantees.

Incarcerated since the end of January, each day she remains in prison is an agonizing wait for Roxana Saberi's family and friends.

Today, in an exclusive interview in Tehran, ABC's George Stephanopoulos asked Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad if he would accept President Obama's word that Saberi was not spying for the U.S., and let her go.

Saberi's fiance, an Iranian filmmaker, spoke out for the first time yesterday. In a letter released by the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, Bahman Ghobadi says Saberi is not a spy and wanted to leave Iran, but agreed to stay while he finished a film.

For now, Saberi sits in Evin prison in what her father says is a small cell she shares with two others.

Many watching Saberi's case are concerned she is being used as a pawn by the Iranian government. She was initially arrested for illegally buying wine. That charge soon escalated into espionage.

ABC's Gloria Riviera reports from London.

12 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AFP) Mia Farrow is to start a hunger strike next week in a bid to draw attention to the humanitarian crisis in the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan, a statement on the actress's website said Thursday.

The 64-year-old said from Monday she would begin a water-only fast as a gesture of solidarity and as "a personal expression of outrage" at deaths from starvation, thirst and disease in Darfur.

Farrow said her fast was prompted by the Sudanese government's expulsion of 13 international aid groups from the region last month. Farrow called on world leaders to pressure Sudan into reversing the decision.

"I undertake this fast in the heartfelt hope that world leaders who know what is just and right will call upon the Government of Sudan to urgently readmit all of the expelled agencies," said Farrow.

Farrow told People magazine she had set herself a target of three weeks.

"I am going to get my blood tested after two weeks and if there is organ damage, I will have to stop," she said.

Farrow, a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, is one of several celebrities who have campaigned relentlessly to draw attention to the conflict in Darfur.

The United Nations says 300,000 people have died -- many from disease and hunger -- and 2.7 million have been made homeless by the Darfur conflict which erupted in 2003. Khartoum puts the death toll at 10,000.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved. More »

Psych Lit wrote:

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nesea wrote:

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understand what you're saying but for me following orders doesn't always fly ... if it did then we wouldn't have pharmacists that refuse to prescribe birth control who are employed by drug stores that routinely prescribe, you wouldn't have doctor's that refuse to terminate pregnancies for hospitals that offer the procedure. Dissent or disagreement with superiors is difficult regardless of how far down the ladder we happen to be and yet, right or wrong, for better or worse, we see it happening every day.


well yeah, im not saying there is no dissent. dissent seems alive and well when we are dealing with known consequences in an orderly society where things function as we expect them to. or when there is a central authority that protects those dissenters either by a free press or by laws surrounding dissent.  i wonder if people do some sort of risk assessment before acting? or if action does not follow when we feel that there is no point in our actions? im sort of going in circles here myself with this.  in the last administration we had the abu gharib debacle. those who participated did so supposedly because they had orders to do so. the situation went unchecked until on brave person snuck the photos to the press. had he not done so this might still be going on. i dont know how many soldiers were stationed at that site but only one felt morally obliged to do something. ive never been in the military but my understanding is that if someone is given an order that is outside of the bounds of military authority they are obliged to refuse and yet that didnt happen. after several said the same thing they were following orders. the person who did whistle blow had to go outside of military authority for safety. what if that place of safety wasnt there? thats why we are supposed to have those checks and balances in place, right? but under the last administration those were placed at risk. in the determination of guilt for those actions as i recall the ones who made the rules were not prosecuted or court martialed but those who did the actual hands on work were. maybe that changed afterward, if so i dont recall hearing it.
in that instance it was again rules that only after exposure were called into action and those rules protected the whistleblower only because of a free press and a nation watching the outcome. 
but in those instances where there are no rules or the central authority is taken over what can anyone do?  torture has been in the news in the past few days. initially obama backed away from any sort of holding of accountability for this but seems to be moving in that direction but differently than the last admin. he is holding those who make the rules accountable.
in these instances im left with the question of what moral responsibility do we have to act when action will probably not change the outcome but will cause harm, injury or death to the person who wishes the situation to change?
I believe ethics are at the heart of the question here ...  I do what I'm told or do I do what I believe is right? And yes I understand this question is subjective .. I mean really ... what is right ...?   and does the statement .. "but they told me do" really negate personal responsibility?

i think thats how it should be but  can you stand up and do that even if they will kill your partner, your children, your parents? thats the choice that many people face in the world. im not enough of a cynic to think that most people in juarez support the drug trade that is killing thousands of people. if everyone stood up would everyone get mowed down and the situation remain the same? there may be a logic to the actions of the drug dealers but they play with a different set of rules than do the people who are innocent and yet caught up in this crap. the local authorites are reportedly corrupt so calling the police isnt an option. right now there is a military presence but sooner or later they will leave and anyone who cooperates will then pay the price for that.  how can a minority of offenders take hold of a community when the community has a different set of values? how can they maintain that hold if the rest of the people wish them to be gone?  the old notions of war are gone. now we have stateless conflicts with porous boundaries and unknown combatants. how does one change that?

which leads me to that other question. when anarchy is the new rule how does civilization thrive?


Ya know .. not to swing to far away from the discussion .. this almost reminds me of the premise ..."christ died for my sins and thus absolves me from any consequence" .. to which I say .. bull****.  I really don't care if someone that has committed say .. crimes against children or crimes against humanity, accepts jesus christ as the son of god and their saviour (the only criteria, according to the bible, to enter the kingdom of heaven)  or not .. I believe that any person that has committed those types of crimes should not only be held accountable by society but if indeed there is a hell (whole nuther discussion) then this person deserves to take their well deserved spot there.  

and see i agree with you to a point. in the old world order thats what we might have done or at least thats what we thought we should do but in conflicts where the only rule is there are no rules and do whatever it takes no matter what how does a civilized society operate in that format?

but i dont think that indifference defines our response to the reports of torture by the us .. voices are/ were saying, this is not who we are and we will not tolerate it. it must end .. gitmo must close and those held there should either be prosecuted or released.  

where was congress the last 8 years? where was the press?


Really ... I don't even know for sure where I'm going with this ... I know you are right and indifference is a problem. I guess it comes down to us hearing what we want to hear and fighting only the fights that interest us. We are, all of us, indifferent about one thing or another ... at one time or another ... probably depending more on where we fall on a "personal needs" scale ourselves. Hard to fight for another when you're fighting to survive for yourself too.

yeah im in the place of trying to figure out the moral line between indifference and self preservation and how that fits in a post conventional world.

I'm just kinda typing it as I think it so this is all over the place ... I'm gonna continue to roll it around and revisit this when I have more time.

good im enjoying your thoughts in this

-- Edited by nesea on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 07:29:32 AM

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Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Having Buddhist leanings I am all ears:) Would your care to expand for those of us that do not know you as well? First comes to mind you are working on a PHd and, second is a script for a movie. Set me straight would ya? I'm very intrigued:) Gator

 

no to the former and unsure as to the latter that may be one option but there are other formats that could work better. ive got to get a bit more into the research to tell which format will work best.    tis a tale of moral indifference or perhaps not so indifferent. however the moral question is everywhere and bears some further study.  two of my areas of specialty are psychological autopsy and archived research.  so this is something that i can use in both of my worlds and get funding for the research part because the moral question surrounds us daily and is in need of exploration. just this morning, for instance, i read a story on the news about a woman executed in yemen for killing her husband who had apparently molested their young child. the mother might have been pardoned if her children had stepped up and asked for it to be so but they didnt citing familial and societal pressure.  to an outside observer who didnt know the feelings of the children one might conclude that they were morally indifferent to the killing of their mother but that is not the case. there are other circumstances surrounding their allowing it to happen. we live in a world where the majority of people would probably choose very similar lives with very similar wants, freedom, work, shelter, food, love, peace and yet most of the world is not like this. if the majority rules how does this come to be?  if one is at an indoor picnic and a fly threatens to ruin it people swat the fly there would be no shortage of volunteers right? well what if the fly spit poison 10 feet into the air and that spit would kill on contact. how many of the previous volunteers would still try to swat it? the picnic is still ruined but the volunteer base is suddenly lots smaller.  lets say thru disney magic the fly develops opposable thumbs and grabs the baby and says give me all of your picnic food or ill spit on the kid. nobody wants to give the food away but its the baby, yanno? so they do. so the fly feeling empowered says this flying around nonsense if for the birds, from now on i want all of those honey pies on the front stoop and my associates will collect them and if you dont, well spit on you or your family. how many volunteers do you suppose would line up to challenge the fly? probably a few at first, but the fly has the advantage. the people play by the rules the fly doesnt.  moral conflict number one right there. so lets say that our hardy volunteers band together secretly and come up with a plan. the fly colony gets wind of the plan with their supersonic hearing and they say anyone caught helping the volunteers will die and then well kill their families. so  one night the wife of one of the volunteers overhears their plan for the next night. fearing for the life of her child she goes to the fly master and says this is gonna happen. the fly spares her but kills the volunteer. people take note of this. moral lesson number two.  now the volunteers are at a loss to know who to trust some walk away. is this moral indifference?  in the mexican border towns is it moral indifference that allows the level of violence that has taken hold to happen? is it moral indifference that keeps widows in afghanistan begging on the streets? i mean you can think of a thousand examples of this that are going on all over the world today. and yet the majority of people in these areas are not indifferent they are silenced and that is a very different thing.  the anecdote that i found in the book was a rarely told adjunct to a very familiar story and the archived perspectival telling of that story by those who lived it, is one that brings the whole moral question into sharp focus and also if told correctly may have a surprising revisting of some old and already settled moral distinctions. 

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After I clean up from the yard and then take a nap, I'm going to digest this. I feel fear more than indifference when I read this fast. And, always a man behind the latter you wrote about. I read last week that 10 tribes in Niger are stopping the practice of FGM. As well as a region in the middle east bordering Iraq. We shall hope so and see. Gator

 

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Anonymous wrote:

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Having Buddhist leanings I am all ears:) Would your care to expand for those of us that do not know you as well? First comes to mind you are working on a PHd and, second is a script for a movie. Set me straight would ya? I'm very intrigued:) Gator

 

no to the former and unsure as to the latter that may be one option but there are other formats that could work better. ive got to get a bit more into the research to tell which format will work best.    tis a tale of moral indifference or perhaps not so indifferent. however the moral question is everywhere and bears some further study.  two of my areas of specialty are psychological autopsy and archived research.  so this is something that i can use in both of my worlds and get funding for the research part because the moral question surrounds us daily and is in need of exploration. just this morning, for instance, i read a story on the news about a woman executed in yemen for killing her husband who had apparently molested their young child. the mother might have been pardoned if her children had stepped up and asked for it to be so but they didnt citing familial and societal pressure.  to an outside observer who didnt know the feelings of the children one might conclude that they were morally indifferent to the killing of their mother but that is not the case. there are other circumstances surrounding their allowing it to happen. we live in a world where the majority of people would probably choose very similar lives with very similar wants, freedom, work, shelter, food, love, peace and yet most of the world is not like this. if the majority rules how does this come to be?  if one is at an indoor picnic and a fly threatens to ruin it people swat the fly there would be no shortage of volunteers right? well what if the fly spit poison 10 feet into the air and that spit would kill on contact. how many of the previous volunteers would still try to swat it? the picnic is still ruined but the volunteer base is suddenly lots smaller.  lets say thru disney magic the fly develops opposable thumbs and grabs the baby and says give me all of your picnic food or ill spit on the kid. nobody wants to give the food away but its the baby, yanno? so they do. so the fly feeling empowered says this flying around nonsense if for the birds, from now on i want all of those honey pies on the front stoop and my associates will collect them and if you dont, well spit on you or your family. how many volunteers do you suppose would line up to challenge the fly? probably a few at first, but the fly has the advantage. the people play by the rules the fly doesnt.  moral conflict number one right there. so lets say that our hardy volunteers band together secretly and come up with a plan. the fly colony gets wind of the plan with their supersonic hearing and they say anyone caught helping the volunteers will die and then well kill their families. so  one night the wife of one of the volunteers overhears their plan for the next night. fearing for the life of her child she goes to the fly master and says this is gonna happen. the fly spares her but kills the volunteer. people take note of this. moral lesson number two.  now the volunteers are at a loss to know who to trust some walk away. is this moral indifference?  in the mexican border towns is it moral indifference that allows the level of violence that has taken hold to happen? is it moral indifference that keeps widows in afghanistan begging on the streets? i mean you can think of a thousand examples of this that are going on all over the world today. and yet the majority of people in these areas are not indifferent they are silenced and that is a very different thing.  the anecdote that i found in the book was a rarely told adjunct to a very familiar story and the archived perspectival telling of that story by those who lived it, is one that brings the whole moral question into sharp focus and also if told correctly may have a surprising revisting of some old and already settled moral distinctions. 

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Psych Lit wrote:

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I had an interesting learning experience today to. id love to share the whole thing but then, as the saying goes, id have to kill ya. lol.

i was hanging around at a friends house earlier today waiting on her pokey self and browsing thru her bookshelf and picked up a 20 year old book that used an historical incident to illustrate a point. i hadnt heard this particular story before and that alone was amazing because it was quite remarkable. and the more i read the more convinced i became that this story would make a spectacular writing project if approached from multiple perspectives.  the story is a perfect koan. so abrupt change of plans and off we go to the the library to research and praise be to the goddess nobody has done this story before. i'm just in researcher heaven here. lol

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 How COOL! YAY! I'm really happy for you!!!

Anonymous wrote:

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Sounds like they are taking the place of CD's. I'm going to play with it with pictures first. Thanks. Gator

 

Not exactly, just another form of media storage. They won't replace inexpensive "disposable" media like cd/dvd but complement them. Ativa is a brand made exclusively for Office Depot. I know this cuz I hang there. Their sales will swell when the mini notepads start to catch on, no disc drive.

 

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Since you hang there, is this a good brand? Know of any trouble with it? I have a usb in the front of my pc. (a drop down door with multiple connects) I just plug it that huh? Will it prompt me like a cd does? Are the notepads exclusive to office depot? Whats a note pad. lol Gator

 

more like the old floppy disks only not as fragile. i usually have one or two on a cord around my neck. lol. geek jewlery:) for my uses i can save my work to the drive and plug it in at home work some more save and go back to work in the am and plug it in and continue. as owl said good for storage or backing up your files or saving to so as not to clutter up your puter. note pad: click on your start menu and then all programs. you prolly have note pad on there. its a simple word processing program without all the bells and whistles. there is another kind of notepad having to do with music but i dont think thats what youre asking about?  flash drive usefulness comes from size. in the old days 2g would have been huge but with saving videos and pix that wont last too long. the good news is that if you like them they are relatively cheap to buy. i like them on the smaller side and prefer to use more than one. if everything is on one drive and the drive gets screwed up then youre sort of out of luck.

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Anonymous wrote:

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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Gator wrote:

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When I bought printer ink this week I was given a free ativa high speed 2.0 (2gb) portable flash drive. I've never used one and, was wondering if those of you here would want to send me any tech tips you may have. First off being what the heck is it? I know I am behind on the learning curve. It appears to be something to move files from one source to another. Is this brand any good? All thoughts appreciated. Peaceful Sunday to you. Gator

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They're good for storing photos and music, I know THAT.

Don't know the brand, but am inclined to think there's really not all that much difference between any of them.

They're good for yes, taking files from one computer and plugging them into another, but I really just use them for storage; essentially adding gigs to my computer, if that makes sense. I've got about six of 'em ... ALL FULL.

If you have files on your computer right now that you don't open very often, but want to keep, and your C drive is filling up, you can transfer those files to your flash drive (which slips into your computer's USB port, or in my case, the extension box from one of my USB ports) and then, delete them from your C drive. If you find you want to open those files again, you just plug your flash drive in, go to "my computer" or whatever your system has like that, and open that drive, and there your stuff will be, just as if it were still on your C drive. Just sort of like putting a small portable addition onto a house, you know? 

The high speed stuff ... I don't know so much about. I'd pretty much assumed it meant nothing, but that's not the case with SD cards. Anyway, the photo above means, basically, I've just added 6 gigs to my computer, if that makes any sense. 

It's a "good" thing. :)

 

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Sounds like they are taking the place of CD's. I'm going to play with it with pictures first. Thanks. Gator

 

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Not exactly, just another form of media storage. They won't replace inexpensive "disposable" media like cd/dvd but complement them. Ativa is a brand made exclusively for Office Depot. I know this cuz I hang there. Their sales will swell when the mini notepads start to catch on, no disc drive.

Gator wrote:

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When I bought printer ink this week I was given a free ativa high speed 2.0 (2gb) portable flash drive. I've never used one and, was wondering if those of you here would want to send me any tech tips you may have. First off being what the heck is it? I know I am behind on the learning curve. It appears to be something to move files from one source to another. Is this brand any good? All thoughts appreciated. Peaceful Sunday to you. Gator

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Don't know the brand, but am inclined to think there's really not all that much difference between any of them.

They're good for yes, taking files from one computer and plugging them into another, but I really just use them for storage; essentially adding gigs to my computer, if that makes sense. I've got about six of 'em ... ALL FULL.

If you have files on your computer right now that you don't open very often, but want to keep, and your C drive is filling up, you can transfer those files to your flash drive (which slips into your computer's USB port, or in my case, the extension box from one of my USB ports) and then, delete them from your C drive. If you find you want to open those files again, you just plug your flash drive in, go to "my computer" or whatever your system has like that, and open that drive, and there your stuff will be, just as if it were still on your C drive. Just sort of like putting a small portable addition onto a house, you know? 

The high speed stuff ... I don't know so much about. I'd pretty much assumed it meant nothing, but that's not the case with SD cards. Anyway, the photo above means, basically, I've just added 6 gigs to my computer, if that makes any sense. 

It's a "good" thing. :)  

MyCat8it wrote:

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find that a lot.  No one ever wants to explain the rules or the pitfalls of what they're trying to sell you.  When you buy a house, the seller is required to make full disclosure of everything wrong in the house.  This should be a rule for all of life.

and we should be asking too. one lesson that comes out of this economic chaos is that left to their own devices corporations and other financial entities are not our friends.

course, I'm not an investment broker, either.  Although, your overview seems to make sense.  When stocks are down, bonds are more appealing because of the higher return and the stability.  When stocks are up and bonds are down, it's not quite as easy to sell a bond.  So, when you do, it could be at a loss.  However, you did benefit from the interest payments during the holding period.  At least, that's my understanding. 

yes it has something to do with balancing risk using the profits to move between the two rather than the whole enchilada. supposedly it evens it out a lot more than the ways that seem prudent.

Last thing I want to say, is that before you turn your investment account into an "active management" account, be sure you understand what the fees are.  I have a few clients whose investment accounts are actively managed by their brokers, and the fees reach well into the $1000s per year.  I'm not sure if that's the path you're leaning toward, but it sounds like it. 

Active management = the broker keeps an eye on your account and holdings and makes buys/sells as he/she deems appropriate.

no, not yet. maybe later. my stuff is self directed at the moment. the planner is needed to help me with setting up stuff for my daughter for after im in the great beyond. she has a form of autism and tho shes really a lot more functional than most people with her dx she does require some support. id hate to leave it all to chance. i want her future to be safe and secure or as much so as i can manage for her.

 

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Psych Lit wrote:

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on first glance im thinking ok well ill have medicare so its ok. not so. apparently medicare and private ins are worlds apart in what they cover and how much they cover and where you can go for care. no mayo clinic on medicare apparently. and i find out that i could have avoided this if i had taken the optional supplementary health care coverage when i was an active employee. no take back on this so im stuck with that decision.

It is all so very hard to understand. Mayo is not the only one not accepting new medicare patients. Can you explain what you mean by not taking the optional supplementary insurance? Won't yours convert to that when you go on medicare? Can you convert in an open season? Thanks for this. I'm making it a point to not be uneducated when it comes to this. I have not plunged myself into this site but, it may help. Gator

http://www.ebri.org/

then he looked over my 401, 403 and ira stuff and apparently stuffing it in the credit union wasnt the best plan.  he told me about something called modern portfolio theory which is still too new in my brain for me to explain coherently but for those who do have these kinds of accounts it seems worth looking into. cat probably knows what this is.  i tried googling to see if i could find a good explanation but even the wiki entries are complicated.
what i took from it at this meeting was that when stocks go up bonds go down etc and that one should take the profits from stocks and throw them into bonds before the market turns or bonds into stocks when that cycle is present and that whichever is the most down at the time of the transfer will reap the biggest rewards when either bonds or stocks rise. of course caution in choosing seems necessary tho im gonna meet with this guy again in a few weeks after ive had a chance to look over all the info he gave me and formulate some better questions.

I have a small vanguard roth ira. I play with a few cd's in my credit union. I think a lot are rethinking trusting some stranger with our hard earned. I feel for those who have so much to stress over. I'm hoping the stock rally is enough to re coup the small loss seemingly to most but, huge loss for me.

Then I am done with it. Gator

what i did walk away with tonight is that id better keep working if for no other reason than the insurance bennies. this is disappointing. i was looking forward to a long and rewarding retirement beginning in a few years. alas that aint happening.

I think if you keep dreaming it, it will happend. I'll add a prayer in too;)

America needs people like you free and in retirement to do good works. Gator