Where Everybody Knows You're Numb

Psych Lit · Guru

RE: knew it was coming ...

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

<exotic>

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims
by Anne Ryman - May. 16, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Academic programs with small enrollments are another casualty of university budget cuts.
All three state universities plan to phase out a number of programs over the next few years.
For freshmen and sophomores, this means they may have to change majors or transfer to another university.
Arizona State University plans to eliminate 56 programs, most of them at the graduate level, including several master's degree concentrations in music.
The University of Arizona is slashing 24 programs, ranging from a Ph.D. in French to a bachelor's degree in physical education.
Northern Arizona University is getting rid of bachelor's degrees in theater studies and theater-secondary education.
Total savings: $11 million at ASU, $500,000 at UA and $70,000 at NAU.
Cutting the 53-student physical-education and 10 secondary-education programs at UA will save $300,000 a year when the programs are phased out.
UA freshman Whitney Mayfield has a choice of either changing her major or transferring to another school. The 19-year-old from Buckeye is disappointed because she has a partial scholarship and wants to stay to finish her degree in physical education.
"Maybe it wasn't a money-making program," Mayfield said. "But at least give us an alternative."

im thinking phys ed and sec ed arent exactly exotic. geesh where did that come from and what were they thinking? here womens sports programs have come under fire. quinnipiac u is being sued by their volleyball team for title ix violations. apparently the coaches were asked to pad their rosters in the case of males take them off and put them back on after the title ix report went out and in the case of females add names and then take them off the resule being that the women lost slots while the males gained them. complaining resulted in the closing of the womens volleyball program which is why they sued. good for them tho i have a horrible suspicion that they will eliminate all athletics in response.

This is the part that "gets" me:

"Northern Arizona University is getting rid of bachelor's degrees in theater studies and theater-secondary education.

Total savings: $70,000 at NAU."

That's what ... ONE staff member's annual salary?
Since when was teaching high school drama "exotic?" It seems as though they're wiping out the whole theatre department to make ... $70K? What the HELL??

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

<exotic>

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims
by Anne Ryman - May. 16, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Academic programs with small enrollments are another casualty of university budget cuts.
All three state universities plan to phase out a number of programs over the next few years.
For freshmen and sophomores, this means they may have to change majors or transfer to another university.
Arizona State University plans to eliminate 56 programs, most of them at the graduate level, including several master's degree concentrations in music.
The University of Arizona is slashing 24 programs, ranging from a Ph.D. in French to a bachelor's degree in physical education.
Northern Arizona University is getting rid of bachelor's degrees in theater studies and theater-secondary education.
Total savings: $11 million at ASU, $500,000 at UA and $70,000 at NAU.
Cutting the 53-student physical-education and 10 secondary-education programs at UA will save $300,000 a year when the programs are phased out.
UA freshman Whitney Mayfield has a choice of either changing her major or transferring to another school. The 19-year-old from Buckeye is disappointed because she has a partial scholarship and wants to stay to finish her degree in physical education.
"Maybe it wasn't a money-making program," Mayfield said. "But at least give us an alternative."

im thinking phys ed and sec ed arent exactly exotic. geesh where did that come from and what were they thinking? here womens sports programs have come under fire. quinnipiac u is being sued by their volleyball team for title ix violations. apparently the coaches were asked to pad their rosters in the case of males take them off and put them back on after the title ix report went out and in the case of females add names and then take them off the resule being that the women lost slots while the males gained them. complaining resulted in the closing of the womens volleyball program which is why they sued. good for them tho i have a horrible suspicion that they will eliminate all athletics in response.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims

by Anne Ryman - May. 16, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Academic programs with small enrollments are another casualty of university budget cuts.

All three state universities plan to phase out a number of programs over the next few years.

For freshmen and sophomores, this means they may have to change majors or transfer to another university.

Arizona State University plans to eliminate 56 programs, most of them at the graduate level, including several master's degree concentrations in music.

The University of Arizona is slashing 24 programs, ranging from a Ph.D. in French to a bachelor's degree in physical education.

Northern Arizona University is getting rid of bachelor's degrees in theater studies and theater-secondary education.

Total savings: $11 million at ASU, $500,000 at UA and $70,000 at NAU.

Cutting the 53-student physical-education and 10 secondary-education programs at UA will save $300,000 a year when the programs are phased out.

UA freshman Whitney Mayfield has a choice of either changing her major or transferring to another school. The 19-year-old from Buckeye is disappointed because she has a partial scholarship and wants to stay to finish her degree in physical education.

"Maybe it wasn't a money-making program," Mayfield said. "But at least give us an alternative."

My Turn · Senior Member

Psych Lit wrote:

My Turn wrote:

also, i saw lots of states where the compulsory age was 18....does this mean the kids cant drop out...a good thing i am thinking...but how do you get a 16 or 17 y/o that is dead set on not going to school and wants to drop out, to school? are the parents held responsible?
ya take away all the goodies, the car keys, the video games, the tv, the allowance, the job if they have one, their freedom. you drive them to school, you make arrangements with the school to call you if they bail after home room. if they do you go with them and sit in their classroom. (embarrassment is a great motivator.)
plus, what if you have someone like my kid....wasnt all that "into" the high school scene.....was bored and not really into the social scene of h.s...wanted to drop out...which was completely unacceptable to me.....so, working with the school, we reached a compromise where he took extra classes at the florida virtual high school online and tested out of the rest and began taking college classes in jan. he just got his high school diploma in february and will participate in the county wide graduation ceremony (which is for those kids that completed h.s. online or are home schooled) this summer. ..(a concession to me, cause all moms NEED to see their kids walk across that stage..lol!) but i am thinking what if fl was one of those states that required him to be in high school till he was 18?
im thinking that most states have alternative programs like the one that your son was in. a great idea btw as long as he did the work. i had a kid like this. started in the 3rd grade with the im not doing the homework stuff. his teacher, a male, decided that my consequences werent stringent enough and so he called my kid every day at 330 in the afternoon and asked if he had done his homework and gave him a stern lecture. kid said nope im not doing it. i had already taken everything out of that kids room and initially that was beginning to work tho once the teacher got involved it became a contest of wills and he sat staring at the ceiling mon-fri and still he wouldnt do it. he said he already knew how to do it and he didnt need to waste his time rehearsing it. imo the strong arm tactics turned what was a minor problem that might have been handled with natural consequences into a major problem and a heel digging in that was unnecessary. when he got to the 8th grade he did a similar thing only truancy was involved now and this time i took a leave of absence from work, and homeschooled him. after 6 months of mommy the barbarian as the task master he was begging to return to school. hes still not the most motivated of the brood tho now hes living in germany and his gf gets to do the motivation. i might add that shes quite effective at it as gf and love often are.

i get what you are saying about taking their stuff away....and i did threaten to go sit with him in class every day the one time he threatened to not go. and i would have done it and he knew it. luckily cutting class and not doing his work or homework wasnt the issue. he was bored and felt he was wasting his time. he said it was stupid cause he could get all his work for the week done in two days and didnt see why he needed to be there the other three days. he has always had his eyes set on college and was not into high school. he took his ACT test in october, got a cumulative of 21. and yeah he did all the extra work and online work and is now enrolled in college. he even entered into a payment agreement with the college to make payments on his tuition till his financial aid came in. he is so funny, he says he "bought back a year and a half of his life..." however, what about the kids that just dont wanna do it? a year ago his friend didnt want to go to school and his mother took the stuff away and all...(didnt take him to school and sit with him all day tho)...and it just got worse and worse....till the kid ran away from home.....so what do you do in that situation? it was horrible to have the mom call me and my kid, crying and looking for her kid....the kid did eventually call my kid and tell him he was ok....and my son let the mom know. he still has never gone back home......and he was only 16 then.....thats just really sad to me.....

Psych Lit · Guru

My Turn wrote:

also, i saw lots of states where the compulsory age was 18....does this mean the kids cant drop out...a good thing i am thinking...but how do you get a 16 or 17 y/o that is dead set on not going to school and wants to drop out, to school? are the parents held responsible?
ya take away all the goodies, the car keys, the video games, the tv, the allowance, the job if they have one, their freedom. you drive them to school, you make arrangements with the school to call you if they bail after home room. if they do you go with them and sit in their classroom. (embarrassment is a great motivator.)
plus, what if you have someone like my kid....wasnt all that "into" the high school scene.....was bored and not really into the social scene of h.s...wanted to drop out...which was completely unacceptable to me.....so, working with the school, we reached a compromise where he took extra classes at the florida virtual high school online and tested out of the rest and began taking college classes in jan. he just got his high school diploma in february and will participate in the county wide graduation ceremony (which is for those kids that completed h.s. online or are home schooled) this summer. ..(a concession to me, cause all moms NEED to see their kids walk across that stage..lol!) but i am thinking what if fl was one of those states that required him to be in high school till he was 18?
im thinking that most states have alternative programs like the one that your son was in. a great idea btw as long as he did the work. i had a kid like this. started in the 3rd grade with the im not doing the homework stuff. his teacher, a male, decided that my consequences werent stringent enough and so he called my kid every day at 330 in the afternoon and asked if he had done his homework and gave him a stern lecture. kid said nope im not doing it. i had already taken everything out of that kids room and initially that was beginning to work tho once the teacher got involved it became a contest of wills and he sat staring at the ceiling mon-fri and still he wouldnt do it. he said he already knew how to do it and he didnt need to waste his time rehearsing it. imo the strong arm tactics turned what was a minor problem that might have been handled with natural consequences into a major problem and a heel digging in that was unnecessary. when he got to the 8th grade he did a similar thing only truancy was involved now and this time i took a leave of absence from work, and homeschooled him. after 6 months of mommy the barbarian as the task master he was begging to return to school. hes still not the most motivated of the brood tho now hes living in germany and his gf gets to do the motivation. i might add that shes quite effective at it as gf and love often are.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My Turn wrote:

did you see that in pennsylvania the age is 8??! cant imagine holding my kid back till s/he was 8 and then starting them in kindergarten....well, actually first grade since according to the chart, PA doesnt require kindergarten attendance....but ok, now you have a kid that is 2 years older then the other kids AND missed kindergarten....??? seems like it would be starting that kid off at a disadvange from the get-go...

yes it does. a decade or so ago tho there was a real push having to do with school readiness especially with males. the powers that be often suggested that parents hold back the kids for a year or two if they had issues like attention or maturity or they had birthdays that made them the youngest in their class. im thinking its probably related to that. tho an 8 year old in a class of 6 year olds is going to feel out of place.

Speaking of disadvantage. If I heard right. Florida will be charging $10.00 a day for head start. $200.00 a month seems out of reach for a lot of folks. Gator

hopefully that wont happen. head start has always been free for low income families and qualification has always been the poverty level which is this year is like 22k for the average family of 4. 200 a
month would be impossible in most states on 22k a year, especially if we are talking working poor here who pay some taxes out of that.

GeezoPETES! Yeah, especially since that is targeted for LOW INCOME families ...

"God's bread, it makes me mad!! " -- (Shakey Willie -- R&J)

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

My Turn wrote:

did you see that in pennsylvania the age is 8??! cant imagine holding my kid back till s/he was 8 and then starting them in kindergarten....well, actually first grade since according to the chart, PA doesnt require kindergarten attendance....but ok, now you have a kid that is 2 years older then the other kids AND missed kindergarten....??? seems like it would be starting that kid off at a disadvange from the get-go...

Speaking of disadvantage. If I heard right. Florida will be charging $10.00 a day for head start. $200.00 a month seems out of reach for a lot of folks. Gator

GeezoPETES! Yeah, especially since that is targeted for LOW INCOME families ...

"God's bread, it makes me mad!! " -- (Shakey Willie -- R&J)

Date: Tue Mar 10 1:42 PM, 2009

My Turn wrote:

did you see that in pennsylvania the age is 8??! cant imagine holding my kid back till s/he was 8 and then starting them in kindergarten....well, actually first grade since according to the chart, PA doesnt require kindergarten attendance....but ok, now you have a kid that is 2 years older then the other kids AND missed kindergarten....??? seems like it would be starting that kid off at a disadvange from the get-go...

Speaking of disadvantage. If I heard right. Florida will be charging $10.00 a day for head start. $200.00 a month seems out of reach for a lot of folks. Gator

My Turn · Senior Member

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Here's a site/chart which might interest you, with data through 2006

Click here: Age range for compulsory school attendance and special education services, and policies on year-round schools and

interesting chart. and full of surprises. looks like in az they are required, for now anyway, to provide half day k and id assume if its required they cant charge? what really surprised me was the number of states where the age range began at 7. i suppose that is to take into account the maturity level of some kids who may not be ready for school and yet dont fit into the special ed situation?

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 08:44, 2009-03-07

did you see that in pennsylvania the age is 8??! cant imagine holding my kid back till s/he was 8 and then starting them in kindergarten....well, actually first grade since according to the chart, PA doesnt require kindergarten attendance....but ok, now you have a kid that is 2 years older then the other kids AND missed kindergarten....??? seems like it would be starting that kid off at a disadvange from the get-go...

also, i saw lots of states where the compulsory age was 18....does this mean the kids cant drop out...a good thing i am thinking...but how do you get a 16 or 17 y/o that is dead set on not going to school and wants to drop out, to school? are the parents held responsible? plus, what if you have someone like my kid....wasnt all that "into" the high school scene.....was bored and not really into the social scene of h.s...wanted to drop out...which was completely unacceptable to me.....so, working with the school, we reached a compromise where he took extra classes at the florida virtual high school online and tested out of the rest and began taking college classes in jan. he just got his high school diploma in february and will participate in the county wide graduation ceremony (which is for those kids that completed h.s. online or are home schooled) this summer. ..(a concession to me, cause all moms NEED to see their kids walk across that stage..lol!) but i am thinking what if fl was one of those states that required him to be in high school till he was 18? for us, it would have been a really bad thing. i mean, i think the school was willing to work out this alternative for him because they didnt want him to drop out..mainly for their stats, but also becuase he is a good student and pretty smart....but, would they have been so willing to work with him if they were able to say, hey, tough toodles... you have to be here...too bad, so sad..??

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Which reminds me ...
Phoenix public libraries to cut hours of operation
Reported by: Alyssa Pivirotto
Email: apivirotto@abc15.com
Last Update: 2/04 1:56 pm
The Phoenix Public Library system plans to reduce its hours of operation starting March 2nd.

The new hours will be:

Monday, Wednesday and Friday: 11 a.m. 7 p.m.
Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday: 9 a.m. 5 p.m.

Eight libraries will be open from 1 p.m. 5 p.m. on Sunday including: Burton Barr Central, Cesar Chavez, Cholla, Ironwood, Juniper, Mesquite, Palo Verde and Saguaro.
---------------------------------------------------------

They've also closed two libraries -- one of them, of course, is the one walking distance from my house...

shaking my head. wait till summer and the kids are out of school. theyll probably close at 3.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

This is, of course, an inner city, low income school district. You KNOW these kids, if this happens, aren't going to learn as much in four longer days as they would five shorter -- that they can only absorb so much in one sitting:

and of course im wondering why this experiment happens in the inner city low income district? im wondering what might happen in a community with a higher income bracket? i remain convinced that city leaders often will choose the most desparate areas of a city where they may experience the least amount of resistance. for example, last year in hartford ct the city had a budget shortfall and decided that some of the library's branches had to close. and which ones did they choose? the ones in the poorest sections of the city where people had the fewest resources to travel to other places. it worked out tho because the community bolstered by activism from community leaders and churches and librarians called into question the racial motivation behind the selection and those branches remain open. imo librarians are the unsung heros of so many aspects of inner city life. they took pay and productivity concessions to make that happen. the inner city libraries are like defacto centralized social services agencies supplying info on immigration, visa lotteries, aquisition of passports, schools, and have literacy programs in addition to some of the best cultural programs in the state

Which reminds me ...

Phoenix public libraries to cut hours of operation

Reported by: Alyssa Pivirotto
Email: apivirotto@abc15.com
Last Update: 2/04 1:56 pm

The Phoenix Public Library system plans to reduce its hours of operation starting March 2nd.

The new hours will be:

Monday, Wednesday and Friday: 11 a.m. 7 p.m.
Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday: 9 a.m. 5 p.m.

Eight libraries will be open from 1 p.m. 5 p.m. on Sunday including: Burton Barr Central, Cesar Chavez, Cholla, Ironwood, Juniper, Mesquite, Palo Verde and Saguaro.

---------------------------------------------------------

They've also closed two libraries -- one of them, of course, is the one walking distance from my house... evileye

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

This is, of course, an inner city, low income school district. You KNOW these kids, if this happens, aren't going to learn as much in four longer days as they would five shorter -- that they can only absorb so much in one sitting:

and of course im wondering why this experiment happens in the inner city low income district? im wondering what might happen in a community with a higher income bracket? i remain convinced that city leaders often will choose the most desparate areas of a city where they may experience the least amount of resistance. for example, last year in hartford ct the city had a budget shortfall and decided that some of the library's branches had to close. and which ones did they choose? the ones in the poorest sections of the city where people had the fewest resources to travel to other places. it worked out tho because the community bolstered by activism from community leaders and churches and librarians called into question the racial motivation behind the selection and those branches remain open. imo librarians are the unsung heros of so many aspects of inner city life. they took pay and productivity concessions to make that happen. the inner city libraries are like defacto centralized social services agencies supplying info on immigration, visa lotteries, aquisition of passports, schools, and have literacy programs in addition to some of the best cultural programs in the state

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

This is, of course, an inner city, low income school district. You KNOW these kids, if this happens, aren't going to learn as much in four longer days as they would five shorter -- that they can only absorb so much in one sitting:

March 9th, 2009 @ 6:33am
by Bob McClay/KTAR

Students in the Washington School District in central Phoenix could be going to school just four days a week next year.

The four-day school week is one option on the table as a committee studies how to cut $21 million from next year's budget.

Darrin Squire, president of the Washington teachers' union, is a member of the study committee and says he's not sure about a shorter school week.

"We really don't have the data on it to really examine it, and we would like to examine all of the possibilities," he said.

Squire said the hours that students attend class each week would have to remain the same.

"We have it set by legislation, there are so many hours that the students must fulfill within school time," Squire said.

"We take a day off at the end of the week or the beginning or wherever, those hours from that day have to be added on somewhere. They would be spread throughout the week, so it would definitely be a longer day."

Parent Tracy Parks views that as a problem.

"A lot of kids nowadays can't sit that long," Parks said. "Six hours right now is hard enough. My son, after six hours, he's falling asleep."

Squire said a four-day week would put an extra burden on parents.

"The day that becomes part of a three-day weekend could have a great impact upon the parents -- trying to have daycare, providing for their children and finding out how that could occur," he said.

Other options include unpaid furloughs for teachers and a 5 percent pay cut for teachers.

The committee was to have a closed meeting Monday. Squire said it should come up with recommendations by mid-April."

------------------------------------------------

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

looks like in az they are required, for now anyway, to provide half day k and id assume if its required they cant charge?

Janet got the kids in our state all day kindergarten.

The republican-controlled legislature has been trying to slash education funding for years, and for years Janet has been vetoing every bill hoping to do that, which has crossed her desk. She actually holds a record now, of having vetoed more bills than any other governor in our state's history. Now, with republican Jan Bewer in there ... unless she decides she wants to run for governor when she's completed finishing Janet's term ... this could be bad. Really, REEEEEEEALLY bad ...

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Here's a site/chart which might interest you, with data through 2006

Click here: Age range for compulsory school attendance and special education services, and policies on year-round schools and

interesting chart. and full of surprises. looks like in az they are required, for now anyway, to provide half day k and id assume if its required they cant charge? what really surprised me was the number of states where the age range began at 7. i suppose that is to take into account the maturity level of some kids who may not be ready for school and yet dont fit into the special ed situation?

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 08:44, 2009-03-07

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

the new england states were the first to require mandatory ed and i think its been mandatory for all since the mid 1800;s or so tho thats a guess. its one of those areas that falls to the states and is i believe then areas of inequity are enforced under the equal protection areas of the constitution tho if memory serves the SC has already ruled that as long as some schooling is offered to a child it doesnt necessarily have to be an equal distribution of educational assets. im not sure if that still stands. i havent shepardized it in years and no child left behind might have changed this tho i doubt it because changing it would require that we change the reasons behind it and that might step on too many manolo blahniks.

Here's a site/chart which might interest you, with data through 2006

Click here: Age range for compulsory school attendance and special education services, and policies on year-round schools and

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 08:44, 2009-03-07

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

BoxDog wrote:

Florida is expecting to sign into the budget an increase of 25% in undergrad fees, including a measure to require freshman pay for life on campus their freshman year. Despite maybe living within walking distance to the school.
this is bound to backfire on them. that would tack on another 12k a year in expenses and if thats the case why not spend the money on a private school? theres always a move on to increase enrollment at any school and yet the need to keep the admission standards up. this, if done right, can be a real bonus for state colleges and universities. a lot of top students are looking at the state schools this year. its up to those schools now to give them a competitive education and keep them for the entire 4 years while still retaining their usual student base. imo its a win win for all. everybody benefits from a diverse range of opinion and scholarship.

Aside from that there is a proposed 4 thousand teachers expected to lose their jobs in elementary, middle and hs level education. Add even more concern to to that is the number of schools simply shutting their doors, for lack of funding. The one thing I do question, is not the obvious need for public education, but the fact that we consider it "free", or is the intention that it be "available" to the public? I'm sure this is a popular question, <uh-uh> but seriously? Is there a guarantee in the constitution, bill of rights, state laws that say anything about public education being free to the public or simply available to the public? < BD
while im never a fan of taxation, for myself anyway, since i involuntarily gift half of what i make to the greater good and never get those groovy stimulus goodies, subsidies etc and still have to dig up 4oo a month for my electric bill. that said, i do think there are some things that we as a society have to agree on with regard to how we want the society to be and how we will accomplish that. from a minimal level im thinking health, education, infrastructure and safety which would include defensive measures. I think ed belongs at the federal level but i dont expect to ever see it get there.
as to free vs pay there is compulsory school attendance in all states now tho i think the drop out age still varies. in these parts its 16. i wish it were upon completion of the high school diploma. that along with holding parents accountable for making the kids go might solve a lot of problems. if its compulsory it has to be free. in mass we have the "ol deluder satan act" (really, thats what it was called back then) which required towns with x amount of people to have a teacher and a school:)
Jefferson, one of the signers of the constitution was one of the first to call for public schools that were not religious in affliation. so at least we know how it was taken up back then. he didnt mind the eliteism tho and think he wanted a 2 level schooling system one of "those people" and one for his people. hed be happy to see that this system is still in place today! lol. still taking education outside of its previous perch within the realm of the religious was a radical step back then so kudos to TJ.
the new england states were the first to require mandatory ed and i think its been mandatory for all since the mid 1800;s or so tho thats a guess. its one of those areas that falls to the states and is i believe then areas of inequity are enforced under the equal protection areas of the constitution tho if memory serves the SC has already ruled that as long as some schooling is offered to a child it doesnt necessarily have to be an equal distribution of educational assets. im not sure if that still stands. i havent shepardized it in years and no child left behind might have changed this tho i doubt it because changing it would require that we change the reasons behind it and that might step on too many manolo blahniks.
from a more philosophical perspective i remember the bumper sticker "if you think education is expensive try ignorance"

ROFL! I LOVE this!

one way or another the tax payers pay. either in prisons, social problems, poverty and its ills, health care concerns or even having an orderly society. were we to devote fewer resources to the educational world we'd probably have more lawlessness on our streets. my worst nightmare would be to have those border area problems of cartels, kidnappings, shootings and police running scared become a part of main street usa.
As to seniors? I can tell you a majority of the ones I know don't care about a damned thing but themselves. I'm so sick of hearing gods will will pave the way. Eff that. <BD
i get a lil bit irritated with the senior folks on these kinds of issues. i get a lot of back in my day. we aint back in those days so what do we do now?

I've voted "yes" on every school bond I've run across in the voting booth, and hope to when I have to have someone read the dang thing to me, and lift my hand to register my "X."

Psych Lit · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Florida is expecting to sign into the budget an increase of 25% in undergrad fees, including a measure to require freshman pay for life on campus their freshman year. Despite maybe living within walking distance to the school.
this is bound to backfire on them. that would tack on another 12k a year in expenses and if thats the case why not spend the money on a private school? theres always a move on to increase enrollment at any school and yet the need to keep the admission standards up. this, if done right, can be a real bonus for state colleges and universities. a lot of top students are looking at the state schools this year. its up to those schools now to give them a competitive education and keep them for the entire 4 years while still retaining their usual student base. imo its a win win for all. everybody benefits from a diverse range of opinion and scholarship.

Aside from that there is a proposed 4 thousand teachers expected to lose their jobs in elementary, middle and hs level education. Add even more concern to to that is the number of schools simply shutting their doors, for lack of funding. The one thing I do question, is not the obvious need for public education, but the fact that we consider it "free", or is the intention that it be "available" to the public? I'm sure this is a popular question, <uh-uh> but seriously? Is there a guarantee in the constitution, bill of rights, state laws that say anything about public education being free to the public or simply available to the public?
while im never a fan of taxation, for myself anyway, since i involuntarily gift half of what i make to the greater good and never get those groovy stimulus goodies, subsidies etc and still have to dig up 4oo a month for my electric bill. that said, i do think there are some things that we as a society have to agree on with regard to how we want the society to be and how we will accomplish that. from a minimal level im thinking health, education, infrastructure and safety which would include defensive measures. I think ed belongs at the federal level but i dont expect to ever see it get there.
as to free vs pay there is compulsory school attendance in all states now tho i think the drop out age still varies. in these parts its 16. i wish it were upon completion of the high school diploma. that along with holding parents accountable for making the kids go might solve a lot of problems. if its compulsory it has to be free. in mass we have the "ol deluder satan act" (really, thats what it was called back then) which required towns with x amount of people to have a teacher and a school:)
Jefferson, one of the signers of the constitution was one of the first to call for public schools that were not religious in affliation. so at least we know how it was taken up back then. he didnt mind the eliteism tho and think he wanted a 2 level schooling system one of "those people" and one for his people. hed be happy to see that this system is still in place today! lol. still taking education outside of its previous perch within the realm of the religious was a radical step back then so kudos to TJ.
the new england states were the first to require mandatory ed and i think its been mandatory for all since the mid 1800;s or so tho thats a guess. its one of those areas that falls to the states and is i believe then areas of inequity are enforced under the equal protection areas of the constitution tho if memory serves the SC has already ruled that as long as some schooling is offered to a child it doesnt necessarily have to be an equal distribution of educational assets. im not sure if that still stands. i havent shepardized it in years and no child left behind might have changed this tho i doubt it because changing it would require that we change the reasons behind it and that might step on too many manolo blahniks.
from a more philosophical perspective i remember the bumper sticker "if you think education is expensive try ignorance" one way or another the tax payers pay. either in prisons, social problems, poverty and its ills, health care concerns or even having an orderly society. were we to devote fewer resources to the educational world we'd probably have more lawlessness on our streets. my worst nightmare would be to have those border area problems of cartels, kidnappings, shootings and police running scared become a part of main street usa.
As to seniors? I can tell you a majority of the ones I know don't care about a damned thing but themselves. I'm so sick of hearing gods will will pave the way. Eff that.
i get a lil bit irritated with the senior folks on these kinds of issues. i get a lot of back in my day. we aint back in those days so what do we do now?

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

BoxDog wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

I knew Arizona was in trouble the minute Janet accepted that cabinet appointment, and my worst fears are now being realized.

Understand that Janet Napolitano was one of the best things to ever happen to education in Arizona. But those days are behind us, now, and with a republican-controlled legislature, and a republican governor, there's no stopping the assault to education in this state.

The new proposed budget (which Janet would have vetoed, but Jan won't*) includes a TWENTY ONE PERCENT cut in education, and school districts here are scrambling to figure out how to deal with that.

Gone from the (proposed) budget here is funding set aside for all day kindergarten. School districts are now informing parents that they may have to now pay $10 a day (or $50 a week) for kindergarten. Have to wonder how many families have an extra $200 a month they can put towards that, and how many actually will, when it comes down to the choice of food or education.
i wonder if they can do this? public schools are supposed to be free. will they deny access to a child if the family cannot afford this fee?
there is 150b set aside in this stimulus package for education and hopefully it will prevent these layoffs and cutbacks from happening. i remember when my kids were in public school the tactic was usually to hit the ed budget first because that gets people writing the letters and putting the pressure on their leaders. if they were to cut other services by 21percent people might not object with as much outrage.
i wonder how much clout the senior population has on the educational budget in az? i know in this area the seniors are the ones who go to the budget meetings and try to get the ed funding cut. they no longer have kids in the system and their priorities have become their own purse strings rather than education. there is also a lack of understanding among seniors on the need for expensive technology in the schools. i get a lot of those sorts of petiitions shoved at me at the grocery.

Florida is expecting to sign into the budget an increase of 25% in undergrad fees, including a measure to require freshman pay for life on campus their freshman year. Despite maybe living within walking distance to the school. Aside from that there is a proposed 4 thousand teachers expected to lose their jobs in elementary, middle and hs level education. Add even more concern to to that is the number of schools simply shutting their doors, for lack of funding. The one thing I do question, is not the obvious need for public education, but the fact that we consider it "free", or is the intention that it be "available" to the public? I'm sure this is a popular question, <uh-uh> but seriously? Is there a guarantee in the constitution, bill of rights, state laws that say anything about public education being free to the public or simply available to the public? As to seniors? I can tell you a majority of the ones I know don't care about a damned thing but themselves. I'm so sick of hearing gods will will pave the way. Eff that.

It seems to me, has always seemed to me, a question of national priority, and a question debated ad nauseam. My personal belief is that we are still a nation wealthy enough to wisely invest in our own future by making the education of children (which includes, of course, their learning socialization skills, and a myriad of other byproducts) a top economic priority.

At the risk of drawing accusation of being a socialist (which I'm practiced at enduring, so not that big a deal, I guess, lol) I believe, although it's not spelled out in the constitution, that we have evolved to a point where education is a birthright this country bestows, at least K- 12. To turn our backs on that is to shoot ourselves in the foot, globally domestically, and certainly economically.

I know we need a strong defense budget, and we've certainly always had one, and I'm sure won't waiver in that, but things like Iraq ... the whole mishandling it from the get-go, right through the money invested to rebuild that which we destroyed ... seems sort of wheel spinning to me, and there are certainly times I would, were I in Congress, be tempted to pull just a LITTLE money out of that pot and throw it into domestic issues like education and health care.

I get irked when I see that we're giving financial aid to Iraq now, and have been for years, when ... well, lets face it -- the numbers have always been there for everyone to see, and this is not a third world country, by any means. Yes, I suppose it's our obligation to fix what we've broken -- especially since we were the initial aggressors in Iraq, and waged the "pre-emptive" war on them, but if we STOP DOING crap like that, then we save ourselves a TON of money. I know there are problems with Haiti, but my God ... did you know citizens there are preparing and eating MUD cookies to fill their bellies?

When I was a kid, there wasn't public kindergarten in the state in which I lived, so I attended a "private" one (because that was the only option) in a woman's home, for which my parents paid. Education was a "biggie" in my family, and Dad was teaching at the university at the time. No kids of color, of course ... only about ... ten of us, maybe in this woman's home. My best pal there wore braces on her legs because of the polio which had overtaken her, and for which there was yet to be definitive protective immunization. We were, I suppose, in that kindergarten, an elitist group; I'm sure there were many more kids back home working the farm while we were practicing coloring inside the lines.

Later, in another state, in elementary school, class attendance dipped tremendously when it was time to harvest crops. Parents just pulled their kids out of the classroom and plopped them into the field to pick cantalope, or cotton, or whatever, and it was understood this would happen, and "acceptable." The kids would simply be gone weeks, months even. This was in addition to the daily absences sprinkled throughout the school year during times they had to oversee irrigation. Contrast that to my pal talking with her son's teacher about possibly keeping him out of class an extra week during spring break so that she might be able to take him to see his dad in another state, and could only take off from her job THAT week, not the one before, and the teacher saying that really, his reading skills needed to come up, and it would not be advisable -- that he would miss too much that one week, and fall behind.

The second scenario is, IMO, vastly superior to the first. We're talking about such a crucial learning time, when we focus upon K-6. I know states all over are in a mess. I know things have to be shaved down to deal with the economic woe. I just think it "wrong" I guess to put the burden of this flailing economy upon the backs of those most vulnerable -- the poor, and kids. Schwarzenegger in California has proposed a $4.8 billion cut in education, and the medicaid system there is all but gone at this point. Ill people, PWAs, simply can't "afford" to stay alive any more. Oh, the medicine is still there, but they, as individuals cannot afford it.

I understand the reasoning here ... understand too, that it would have been best if they'd planned for this, and at least had a great medical insurance plan. But they don't. How can we, as a nation just say: "Oh well, let them die, then, if they can't come up with an extra $3500 a month for meds to keep their T cells up. How can we do that? How, as a people of conscience, can wedo that?

Of what good is it, to be a rich, strong, and powerful nation, if we can't do "good" things with that influence, both for ourselves, and others? What is the bottom line goal of this nation's forward movement? Who, do we as a nation, most wish to be in the global scene? What parts of our civilization do we most hope to see endure -- what do we most hope for people a hundred years from now to learn about us? That we sacrificed the Humanities in favor of Hummers, and schools for strategic warfare toys? I've always been soooooooooooo cognizant of the fact that I enjoy the many luxuries I do only because of happenstance, and that I could just as easily have been born in Haiti and quieting my growling tummy with mud swirled around and baked in the sun, and I'm so sick of people insisting we're a "Christian" nation, who are the first to turn away from the teachings of Christ. The "golden rule" has become tarnished. How many starving mouths could have been fed, how many ill and dying patients could have been saved, by the money put, by churches in this country, into Prop 8 alone?? Sure ... protect the family from gay and lesbian people being extended the right to marry, but don't protect them from ignorance and death?? What the hell, you know?? What the hell... ?!?

The dexterity game I learned as a kid went like this: "Here is the church, here is the steeple. Open the doors, and see all the people."

I always assumed it was the people who most mattered, but maybe that's not as widely held a belief as I'd thought. Maybe it's more important to have the impressive church and steeple, rather than the impressive people.

A few years after I learned that little ditty, I was a "Sunshine Girl" (shup up, please and thank you. LOL) and our "motto" there was "Do all the good you can, in all the ways you can, to all the people you can." Isn't this what we've been taught our whole lives? Where was the disclaimer that it was okay to talk the talk but not walk the walk?

Who, what is "America"? Who are we right now? Who do we aspire to become? Is not the tail wagging the dog here, or am I just archaic in my thinking?

I think we need to take a good long look at our priorities, and get "right" with ourselves before we embark on yet another expedition of ramming democracy down a distant nation's throat because it's the "best" and "only" way to endure on this planet. Our backyard is in disarray, and we need to take time to tidy it up before we return to pointing an accusing finger at those on the other side of the fence.

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 07:25, 2009-03-06

BoxDog · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

I knew Arizona was in trouble the minute Janet accepted that cabinet appointment, and my worst fears are now being realized.

Understand that Janet Napolitano was one of the best things to ever happen to education in Arizona. But those days are behind us, now, and with a republican-controlled legislature, and a republican governor, there's no stopping the assault to education in this state.

The new proposed budget (which Janet would have vetoed, but Jan won't*) includes a TWENTY ONE PERCENT cut in education, and school districts here are scrambling to figure out how to deal with that.

Gone from the (proposed) budget here is funding set aside for all day kindergarten. School districts are now informing parents that they may have to now pay $10 a day (or $50 a week) for kindergarten. Have to wonder how many families have an extra $200 a month they can put towards that, and how many actually will, when it comes down to the choice of food or education.
i wonder if they can do this? public schools are supposed to be free. will they deny access to a child if the family cannot afford this fee?
there is 150b set aside in this stimulus package for education and hopefully it will prevent these layoffs and cutbacks from happening. i remember when my kids were in public school the tactic was usually to hit the ed budget first because that gets people writing the letters and putting the pressure on their leaders. if they were to cut other services by 21percent people might not object with as much outrage.
i wonder how much clout the senior population has on the educational budget in az? i know in this area the seniors are the ones who go to the budget meetings and try to get the ed funding cut. they no longer have kids in the system and their priorities have become their own purse strings rather than education. there is also a lack of understanding among seniors on the need for expensive technology in the schools. i get a lot of those sorts of petiitions shoved at me at the grocery.

Florida is expecting to sign into the budget an increase of 25% in undergrad fees, including a measure to require freshman pay for life on campus their freshman year. Despite maybe living within walking distance to the school. Aside from that there is a proposed 4 thousand teachers expected to lose their jobs in elementary, middle and hs level education. Add even more concern to to that is the number of schools simply shutting their doors, for lack of funding. The one thing I do question, is not the obvious need for public education, but the fact that we consider it "free", or is the intention that it be "available" to the public? I'm sure this is a popular question, <uh-uh> but seriously? Is there a guarantee in the constitution, bill of rights, state laws that say anything about public education being free to the public or simply available to the public? As to seniors? I can tell you a majority of the ones I know don't care about a damned thing but themselves. I'm so sick of hearing gods will will pave the way. Eff that.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

I knew Arizona was in trouble the minute Janet accepted that cabinet appointment, and my worst fears are now being realized.

Understand that Janet Napolitano was one of the best things to ever happen to education in Arizona. But those days are behind us, now, and with a republican-controlled legislature, and a republican governor, there's no stopping the assault to education in this state.

The new proposed budget (which Janet would have vetoed, but Jan won't*) includes a TWENTY ONE PERCENT cut in education, and school districts here are scrambling to figure out how to deal with that.

Gone from the (proposed) budget here is funding set aside for all day kindergarten. School districts are now informing parents that they may have to now pay $10 a day (or $50 a week) for kindergarten. Have to wonder how many families have an extra $200 a month they can put towards that, and how many actually will, when it comes down to the choice of food or education.
i wonder if they can do this? public schools are supposed to be free. will they deny access to a child if the family cannot afford this fee?
there is 150b set aside in this stimulus package for education and hopefully it will prevent these layoffs and cutbacks from happening. i remember when my kids were in public school the tactic was usually to hit the ed budget first because that gets people writing the letters and putting the pressure on their leaders. if they were to cut other services by 21percent people might not object with as much outrage.
i wonder how much clout the senior population has on the educational budget in az? i know in this area the seniors are the ones who go to the budget meetings and try to get the ed funding cut. they no longer have kids in the system and their priorities have become their own purse strings rather than education. there is also a lack of understanding among seniors on the need for expensive technology in the schools. i get a lot of those sorts of petiitions shoved at me at the grocery.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

I knew Arizona was in trouble the minute Janet accepted that cabinet appointment, and my worst fears are now being realized.

Understand that Janet Napolitano was one of the best things to ever happen to education in Arizona. But those days are behind us, now, and with a republican-controlled legislature, and a republican governor, there's no stopping the assault to education in this state.

The new proposed budget (which Janet would have vetoed, but Jan won't*) includes a TWENTY ONE PERCENT cut in education, and school districts here are scrambling to figure out how to deal with that.

Gone from the (proposed) budget here is funding set aside for all day kindergarten. School districts are now informing parents that they may have to now pay $10 a day (or $50 a week) for kindergarten. Have to wonder how many families have an extra $200 a month they can put towards that, and how many actually will, when it comes down to the choice of food or education.

Mesa school district (here in the greater Phoenix metropolitan area) just announced they'll probably cut 310 teachers next year. Scottsdale (one of the weathiest districts in the state) plans to cut 200. Oh, and the things that help KEEP kids in school, like Arts and sports? Pfffft.

This is why I was so (seemingly) selfish when Janet was called for the appointment. NEVER would have happened if she'd stayed here -- "education" was her baby -- her pet project.

Oh, and universities are being hit even harder, and probably (in addition to all kinds of other horrors) will close both the poly tech and the west campus altogether. The west campus is, btw, one of the best educator training sites in the country. As a sampler, read this letter from the ASU president:

Arizona State University - Budget cuts

Oh, and if you DO click the above link? Be sure to click the link at the bottom of THAT page, which says something like "Programs already gone" and watch your jaw drop.

And make no mistake -- I know state budgets all over the place are suffering tremendously right now, I do, but the republicans here are almost exclusively trying to make up for the deficit by cutting education.

I'm just sick ...

* The disclaimer here, of course, would be that the only thing which might prevent her from so doing, would be if she's thinking of running for governor after she completes the balance of Janet's term. In that case, it will be more difficult for her to approve some of these dreadful measures.

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 08:58, 2009-03-05

Where Everybody Knows You're Numb

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims

More exotic majors are budget cuts' 1st victims

Phoenix public libraries to cut hours of operation

Phoenix public libraries to cut hours of operation

March 9th, 2009 @ 6:33amby Bob McClay/KTAR

March 9th, 2009 @ 6:33am
by Bob McClay/KTAR