Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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The Ford administration was the last I remember dealing with swine flue and, an outbreak. And, no vaccine then or now. I thought it was suspect to be transmitted from human to human then. Now talk of it being a combined strain with the avian type. With Mexico so much a part of our everyday, it's hard to consider it pandemic..............yet........... but, we are so overdo for number 4. This is what will more than likely do more harm to us than terrorist. You could not pay me to fly or cruise right now with this kind of chatter.  BD, you hearing any inside chat about this?Gator

Residents of California and Texas........CDC

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i heard this early this morning and things have taken a turn for the worse since. last update i heard was over 1000 in mexico city and pockets in california and texas and now they suspect 75 kids in new york may have it.  we criticized some asian countries for not getting an earlier handle on sars and im wondering why there hasnt been more of a proactive stance on this today.  i have to say i am a little suspicious of the outbreaks in areas where there are so many people and people in transit. im hoping its coincidence but it does cause me some concern. im such a germ phobe that this is actually causing me some anxiety tonight.

 

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And it should make you paranoid. These "third world" infectious diseases have infiltrated American soil through travel, absence of medical diagnosis and treatment and largely, now the lack of any available treatment. A few years ago it was Avian and Swine flu, then came the MRSA thing which is still very prevalent though not communicable. Add to that VRE and now there is at least three major staph infections that either have no treatment at all or a mildly effective one that is a gazillion dollars per dose. caspofungin alginate? I think is one treatment at something like a thousand dollars a day for a five day go. For what? We now have two NEW Super resistant strains of staph that are twice as deadly as MRSA and VRE, they act much like computer viruses, "worms" they resist, acclimate and morph in the body to a next level. There is NO KNOWN treatment available. So for the pigs? Keep the Mexicans and their pork out of this country, quarantine any areas where known cases are already reported and clean, clean, clean. Keep your hands out of your mouthes, cuts, any open area of the body is an entry point for this type of threat. It's certain death right now.

Would it be horrible of me to say I'm so glad Jerry Falwell is dead? I can't imagine him blaming queer America for this too.

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Anonymous wrote:

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So no recognizable plane parts left ..  at all   ... anywhere in the picture of the still smoking building ...  ALL debris except this piece shown disintegrated? No hole or burnt spot on the lawn in front of the building?

I dunno ... maybe I'm dense but I'm still not buying it. Nesea

judicial watch did an foi to get the pentagon video. its on the net and you can see the plane hit the building. there really was a  flight 77. of this i am 100 percent sure. 

Flight 77 was flown into the largest concrete reinforced building in the world. Loaded with fuel and possible explosives it Atomized on impact. The WTC full of sheet rock and, sprayed on fire retardant showed a cut out of the plane initially like a cartoon cut everyone expects. The fire caused the collaspe, not the impact. And, lack of reinforcement where sheet rock was. Our senses just can not grasp that an air plane as huge as this became tiny particles of what once was mightly impressive but, did........... relative to our sense.................. little damage to the pentagon. . What we should remember and, not allow are hoaxes to take away from those who lives were lost. At least just in case;) Gator

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Anonymous wrote:

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So no recognizable plane parts left ..  at all   ... anywhere in the picture of the still smoking building ...  ALL debris except this piece shown disintegrated? No hole or burnt spot on the lawn in front of the building?

I dunno ... maybe I'm dense but I'm still not buying it. Nesea

Flight 77 was flown into the largest concrete reinforced building in the world. Loaded with fuel and possible explosives it Atomized on impact. The WTC full of sheet rock and, sprayed on fire retardant showed a cut out of the plane initially like a cartoon cut everyone expects. The fire caused the collaspe, not the impact. And, lack of reinforcement where sheet rock was. Our senses just can not grasp that an air plane as huge as this became tiny particles of what once was mightly impressive but, did........... relative to our sense.................. little damage to the pentagon. . What we should remember and, not allow are hoaxes to take away from those who lives were lost. At least just in case;) Gator

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nesea wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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nesea wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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nesea wrote:

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Of course I'm "one of those" .. (you know the kind) .. I believe our government was involved in 9/11 and that we'll never know what exactly hit the pentagon Where is the Plane, Flight 77?

i dunno about that one there is pentagon footage of the plane hitting.

 

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for sure SOMETHING hit the pentagon ... I'm just saying it wasn't a Boeing 757 as reported. 

Here's an CAD rendering (scale) of a 757 and the pentagon .. I'm pretty darn sure we should be seeing lots of debris and even wings sheared off the plane ... or sumtin ... geez ... there's NOTHING!

 

 

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This is lengthy and, I only posted what your concerns are. You may appreciate the article. GO check it out. Snopes addresses it as well. Gator

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report

Popular Mechanics examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the most persistent conspiracy theories of September 11.

	Introduction	Background | Podcast | Blog | Book | FAQ | Sources
	The Planes	Where's The Pod? | No Stand-Down Order | Flight 175's Windows | Intercepts Not Routine
	The World Trade Center	Widespread Damage | "Melted" Steel | Puffs of Dust | Seismic Spikes | WTC 7 Collapse
	The Pentagon	Big Plane, Small Holes | Intact Windows | Flight 77 Debris
	Flight 93	The White Jet | Roving Engine | Indian Lake | F-16 Pilot

By The Editors

Published in the March 2005 issue.

« Previous Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next »

The Pentagon

At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

HQ Attack: Taken three days after 9/11, this photo shows the extent of the damage to the Pentagon, consistent with a fiery plane crash. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

Big Plane, Small Holes

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel."

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

Intact Windows

Claim: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.

FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do they're blast-resistant.

"A blast-resistant window must be designed to resist a force significantly higher than a hurricane that's hitting instantaneously," says Ken Hays, executive vice president of Masonry Arts, the Bessemer, Ala., company that designed, manufactured and installed the Pentagon windows. Some were knocked out of the walls by the crash and the outer ring's later collapse. "They were not designed to receive wracking seismic force," Hays notes. "They were designed to take in inward pressure from a blast event, which apparently they did: [Before the collapse] the blinds were still stacked neatly behind the window glass."

Flight 77 Debris

Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

Aftermath: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon's lawn proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

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So no recognizable plane parts left ..  at all   ... anywhere in the picture of the still smoking building ...  ALL debris except this piece shown disintegrated? No hole or burnt spot on the lawn in front of the building?

I dunno ... maybe I'm dense but I'm still not buying it.

 

 

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whoa. I was still processing Oswald, Hoffa, the White Album in reverse and if man really did walk the moon or not. I'd bet all those others that it was, in fact, a plane. Whatever it was had pilots. ;)

bd

nesea wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

---

Psych Lit wrote:

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nesea wrote:

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Of course I'm "one of those" .. (you know the kind) .. I believe our government was involved in 9/11 and that we'll never know what exactly hit the pentagon Where is the Plane, Flight 77?

i dunno about that one there is pentagon footage of the plane hitting.

 

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for sure SOMETHING hit the pentagon ... I'm just saying it wasn't a Boeing 757 as reported. 

Here's an CAD rendering (scale) of a 757 and the pentagon .. I'm pretty darn sure we should be seeing lots of debris and even wings sheared off the plane ... or sumtin ... geez ... there's NOTHING!

 

 

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Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report

	Introduction	Background | Podcast | Blog | Book | FAQ | Sources
	The Planes	Where's The Pod? | No Stand-Down Order | Flight 175's Windows | Intercepts Not Routine
	The World Trade Center	Widespread Damage | "Melted" Steel | Puffs of Dust | Seismic Spikes | WTC 7 Collapse
	The Pentagon	Big Plane, Small Holes | Intact Windows | Flight 77 Debris
	Flight 93	The White Jet | Roving Engine | Indian Lake | F-16 Pilot

The Pentagon

At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

HQ Attack: Taken three days after 9/11, this photo shows the extent of the damage to the Pentagon, consistent with a fiery plane crash. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

Big Plane, Small Holes

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel."

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C. (Photograph by Department of Defense)

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

Intact Windows

Claim: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.

FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do they're blast-resistant.

"A blast-resistant window must be designed to resist a force significantly higher than a hurricane that's hitting instantaneously," says Ken Hays, executive vice president of Masonry Arts, the Bessemer, Ala., company that designed, manufactured and installed the Pentagon windows. Some were knocked out of the walls by the crash and the outer ring's later collapse. "They were not designed to receive wracking seismic force," Hays notes. "They were designed to take in inward pressure from a blast event, which apparently they did: [Before the collapse] the blinds were still stacked neatly behind the window glass."

Flight 77 Debris

Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

Aftermath: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon's lawn proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Swine Flu and Factory Farms: Fast Track to Disaster

Factory farms confine thousands of animals in one buildinga breeding ground for disease. ©Farm Sanctuary

by Michael Greger, M.D.

The H1N1 swine flu virus in North America currently concerning global public health officials is not the first triple hybrid human/bird/pig flu virus to be discovered.

First Found on a Factory Farm

The first was discovered in a North Carolina factory farm in 1998. Since the 1918 pandemic, an H1N1 flu virus has circulated in pig populations, becoming one of the most common causes of respiratory disease on North American pig farms.[1]

In August 1998, however, a barking cough resounded throughout a North Carolina pig farm in which all the thousands of breeding sows fell ill. An aggressive H3N2 virus was discovered, the type of influenza that had been circulating in humans since 1968.

Not only was this highly unusualonly a single strain of human virus had ever previously been isolated from an American pig populationbut upon sequencing of the viral genome, researchers found that it was not just a double reassortment (a hybrid of human and pig virus, for example), but a never-before-described triple reassortment, a hybrid of three virusesa human virus, a pig virus and a bird virus.[2]

Intensive Farming is the Problem

Dr. Robert Webster, one of the worlds leading experts of flu virus evolution, blames the emergence of the 1998 virus on the "recently evolving intensive farming practice in the USA, of raising pigs and poultry in adjacent sheds with the same staff," a practice he calls "unsound."[3]  "Within the swine population, we now have a mammalian-adapted virus that is extremely promiscuous," explained another molecular virologist at the time, referring to the virus's proclivity to continue to snatch up genes from human flu viruses. "We could end up with a dangerous virus."[4] This may indeed be what we are now facing.

Within months of the 1998 emergence, the virus showed up in Texas, Minnesota, and Iowa.[5] Within a year, it had spread across the United States.[6] This rapid dissemination across the country has been blamed on long-distance live animal transport.[7]

Long Way to Go

The rapid dissemination of the virus has been blamed on long-distance live animal transport.© Compassion Over Killing

In the United States, pigs travel coast to coast. They can be bred in North Carolina, fattened in the corn belt of Iowa, and slaughtered in California.[8]  While this may reduce short-term costs for the pork industry, the highly contagious nature of diseases like influenza (perhaps made further infectious by the stresses of transport) needs to be considered when calculating the true cost of long-distance live animal transport.

What led to the emergence of the North Carolina strain in the first place? What changed in the years leading up to 1998 that facilitated the surfacing of such a unique strain? It is likely no coincidence that the virus emerged in North Carolina, the home of the nations largest pig farm. North Carolina has the densest pig population in North America and reportedly boasts more than twice as many corporate swine mega-factories as any other state.[9]

Agricultural Intensification

The year of emergence, 1998, was the year North Carolina's pig population hit ten million, up from two million just six years before.[10]  At the same time, the number of hog farms was decreasing, from 15,000 in 1986 to 3,600 in 2000.[11] How do five times more animals fit on almost five times fewer farms? By crowding about 25 times more pigs into each operation.

In the 1980s, more than 85 percent of all North Carolina pig farms had fewer than 100 animals. By the end of the 1990s, operations confining more than 1,000 animals controlled about 99 percent of the state's inventory.[12]  Given that the primary route of swine flu transmission is thought to be the same as human fluvia droplets or aerosols of infected nasal secretions[13]it's no wonder experts blame overcrowding for the emergence of new flu virus mutants.

Starting in the early 1990s, the U.S. pig industry restructured itself after Tysons profitable poultry model of massive industrial-sized units. As a headline in the trade journal National Hog Farmer announced, "Overcrowding Pigs PaysIf Its Managed Properly."[14]

Crowding Breeds Disease

"Influenza [in pigs] is closely correlated with pig density." ©Farm Sanctuary

The majority of U.S. pig farms now confine more than 5,000 animals each. A veterinary pathologist from the University of Minnesota stated the obvious in Science: With a group of 5,000 animals, if a novel virus shows up it will have more opportunity to replicate and potentially spread than in a group of 100 pigs on a small farm.[15]

Recent Outbreak

The swine flu virus discovered this week in California and Mexico appears to be a quadruple reassortment virus incorporating genes from human and avian flu viruses as well as North American and European strains of swine flu. In Europe in 1993, a bird flu virus had adapted to pigs, acquiring a few human flu virus genes, and infected two young Dutch children, even displaying evidence of limited human-to-human transmission.[16]

Recipe for Disaster

"Influenza [in pigs] is closely correlated with pig density," said a European Commission-funded researcher studying the situation in Europe.[17]  As such, Europes rapidly intensifying pig industry has been described in Science as a recipe for disaster.[18]  Some researchers have speculated that the next pandemic could arise out of "Europe's crowded pig barns."[19]

The European Commissions agricultural directorate warns that the concentration of production is giving rise to an increasing risk of disease epidemics."[20]  Concern over epidemic disease is so great that Danish laws have capped the number of pigs per farm and put a ceiling on the total number of pigs allowed to be raised in the country.[21]  No such limit exists in the United States.

With massive concentrations of farm animals within which to mutate, these new swine flu viruses in North America seem to be on an evolutionary fast track, jumping and reassorting between species at an unprecedented rate.[22]  This reassorting, Websters team concludes, makes the 60 million strong U.S. pig population an increasingly important reservoir of viruses with human pandemic potential."[23] "We used to think that the only important source of genetic change in swine influenza was in Southeast Asia," said Christopher Olsen, a molecular virologist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Now, "we need to look in our own backyard for where the next pandemic may appear."[24]

Dr. Michael Greger is director of Public Health and Animal Agriculture in the farm animal welfare division of The Humane Society of the United States. A physician specializing in clinical nutrition, Greger focuses his work on the human health implications of intensive animal agriculture, including the routine use of non-therapeutic antibiotics and growth hormones in animals raised for food, and the public health threats of industrial factory farms.

1 Zhou NN, Senne DA, Landgraf JS, et al. 1999. Genetic reassortment of avian, swine, and human influenza A viruses in American pigs. Journal of Virology 73:8851-6. http://birdflubook.org/resources/ZHOU8851.pdf.

2 Zhou NN, Senne DA, Landgraf JS, et al. 2000. Emergence of H3N2 reassortant influenza A viruses in North American pigs. Veterinary Microbiology 74:47-58. http://birdflubook.org/resources/Zhou47.pdf.

3 Webster RG and Hulse DJ. 2004. Microbial adaptation and change: avian influenza. Revue Scientifique et Technique 23(2):453-65.

4 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://birdflubook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

5 Zhou NN, Senne DA, Landgraf JS, et al. 1999. Genetic reassortment of avian, swine, and human influenza A viruses in American pigs. Journal of Virology 73:8851-6. http://birdflubook.org/resources/ZHOU8851.pdf.

6 Webby RJ, Swenson SL, Krauss SL, Gerrish PJ, Goyal SM, and Webster RG. 2000. Evolution of swine H3N2 influenza viruses in the United States. Journal of Virology 74:8243-51.

7 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://birdflubook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

8 Shields DA and Mathews KH Jr. 2003. Interstate livestock movements. USDA Economic Research Service: Electronic Outlook Report from the Economic Research Service, June. usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/reports/erssor/livestock/ldp-mbb/2003/ldp-m108-01.pdf.

9 Environmental Defense. 2000. Factory hog farming: the big picture. November. http://www.edf.org/documents/2563_FactoryHogFarmingBigPicture.pdf.

10 Duke University Center on Globalization, Governance and Competitiveness. 2006. Hog farming overview. February 23. http://www.soc.duke.edu/NC_GlobalEconomy/hog/overview.php.

11 North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. 2001. North Carolina agriculture overview. February 23. http://ncagr.com/stats/general/livestoc.htm.

12 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://BirdFluBook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

13 Brown IH. 2000. The epidemiology and evolution of influenza viruses in pigs. Veterinary Medicine 74:29-46. http://BirdFluBook.org/resources/Brown29.pdf.

14 1993. Overcrowding pigs pays-if it's managed properly. National Hog Farmer, November 15.

15 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://BirdFluBook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

16 Webster RG, Sharp GB, and Claas CJ. 1995. Interspecies transmission of influenza viruses. Americal Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine 152:525-30.

17 MacKenzie D. 1998. This little piggy fell ill. New Scientist, September 12.

18 Ibid.

19 Delgado C, Rosegrant M, Steinfeld H, Ehui S, and Courbois C. 1999. Livestock to 2020: the next food revolution. Food, Agriculture, and the Environment Discussion Paper 28. For the International Food Policy Research Institute, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations and the International Livestock Research Institute. http://ifpri.org/2020/dp/dp28.pdf.

20 MacKenzie D. 1998. This little piggy fell ill. New Scientist, September 12, p. 1818.

21 Ibid.

22 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://birdflubook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

23 Webby RJ, Rossow K, Erickson G, Sims Y, and Webster R. 2004. Multiple lineages of antigenically and genetically diverse influenza A virus co-circulate in the United States swine population. Virus Research 103:67-73. http://BirdFluBook.org/resources/webby67.pdf.

24 Wuethrich B. 2003. Chasing the fickle swine flu. Science 299:1502-5. http://BirdFluBook.org/resources/WUETHRICH1502.pdf.

nesea wrote:

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See this is where my naturally suspicious nature kicks in and all sorts of unimaginable things pop into my mind .. things like how a flu (avian flu) that is prevalent in Pakistan, Cambodia and China mutates with the swine flu (which traditionally isn't passed from person to person) and pops up in remote Mexico villages and yet turns out to be treatable by tamiflu (is that the sound of Roche stocks skyrocketing I hear?)  and terrorizes a planet.

and lets not forget that the "swine" flu prevention moolah was taken out of the stimulus as "pork".  gawd ya cant make this stuff up.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/27/gop-stripped-flu-pandemic_n_191732.html

Of course I'm "one of those" .. (you know the kind) .. I believe our government was involved in 9/11 and that we'll never know what exactly hit the pentagon Where is the Plane, Flight 77?

i dunno about that one there is pentagon footage of the plane hitting.

So are new strains of flu being concocted, manipulated and released on humans? ... I don't doubt that it could happen.  Money is quite the motivator.

its scary to think that there are people all over the world working on creating viruses that might kill everyone. maybe this isnt one of them or maybe its a dress rehearsal by those who would like to unleash some horrid bug and this is a test to check out our preparedness. even if its coincidence, these things do mutate and all but what puzzled me was listening to the experts predict that this would be a short lived event based on the temperatures that we are heading into. apparently its thought the virus cant withstand heat. im reading this and thinking mexico city end of april..huh?

 

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nesea wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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i wash out both eyes and nose nightly. lol im a total paranoiac about these things. i remember what it was to get that kind of flu. never again. i dont think im strong enough to survive it.

LOL. You and me both. I have a ceramic pot but, thought I was going to drown when I first tried it but, am hoping to get the hang of it. In the meantime I rinse with Ocean nasal mist in the am and at night. And, have not had a spring sneeze in the years since. It's one of those very good practices;) Gator

 

 

 

 

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Trees are popping out here and all the world is covered in green .. you can rinse it off but everything is coated again in minutes. So naturally eyes are itching and throats are scratchy and sneezing becomes a way of life ... so I am not ashamed to say that I have a wonderful relationship with my neti pot and use it everyday (actually I use it regardless of season .. just b/c it feels so good afterwards:) Mine is ceramic too ..

 

It's become one of the things that I don't want to ever live without ...

 

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 nosewaterboarding. eewwee.

Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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i wash out both eyes and nose nightly. lol im a total paranoiac about these things. i remember what it was to get that kind of flu. never again. i dont think im strong enough to survive it.

LOL. You and me both. I have a ceramic pot but, thought I was going to drown when I first tried it but, am hoping to get the hang of it. In the meantime I rinse with Ocean nasal mist in the am and at night. And, have not had a spring sneeze in the years since. It's one of those very good practices;) Gator

 

 

 

 

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Anonymous wrote:

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methicillin. MRSA, methicillin resistant Staphylococcus.

i read recently that most of us now have this on or skin and on our cellphones. note to self: wipe down cell phone tomorrow:)

I'm not familiar with the cbn, thankfully if the C stands for christian.

ayup pat robertson is who i was thinking of.

I think Id be more inclined to watch the Commercials Broadcast Network if forced to choose. I think that these things are typically classified as flu's at the onset, remember the Bird flu?

hmmm back in the late 80s i was working in canada and picked up some weird flu. i spent a couple of weeks in the hospital and another few weeks at home getting better. ive almost always had a flu shot since then. i missed this year. they were doing them at work and i had an emergency situation and missed it and missed the grocery store vaccinations the week before and the work one was the last opportunity to get it. ive been vigilant with the spraying of surfaces since. i hold the paper towel to public bathroom doors. i wash my hands at least 5 times a day. i wash out both eyes and nose nightly. lol im a total paranoiac about these things. i remember what it was to get that kind of flu. never again. i dont think im strong enough to survive it.

, their told by the CDC to stay home yet that's not feasible, if they are working.

this is so my top pet peeve. if youre sick stay home . period.

Now their snotty kids drag it all over the place. I can assure you though the mexican pigs are not flying into the country, so while planes and rail travel, even moreso crusies are hotbeads of infections, the mexican stuff is still just running across the border. I'm just picturing this, people fleeing mexico with their pigs in tow. omg.

the past two weeks has been the school vacation weeks. im thinking when school gets back in session things will pop. im really scared about this.

She does look lovely, I changed her outfit though. I felt like that Flinty Kinda Woman look, with the dresses down to the knees. That's another song, but you know, Ginseng Pepsi,whoooo.

rofl!

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BoxDog wrote:

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I believe this is part of the problem. People are not repsponding to the anti virals. what we're talking about is not viral but bacterial. The reason the "numbers" and such appear as though the deaths, most specifically inpatient appear non related is people do not typically die from the bacteria, the body just can't fight any longer and coronary failure takes pity. So the death certificate will read coronary failure, natural causes, etc. That dwarfs the real issue, and the numbers.  But, it's not unrealistic because certainly the heart does  stop beating when we're dead. But the bacteria doesn't quite die.

ok youre talking about the staph infections and the rest of those super bugs. i was thinking about this flu. really this is freaking me out because everyone around me has been ill for the last week. so far im  not but im such a hypochondriac ill be running for the mainline of whatever flu  thing works for this. hell im watching cnn right now and they are talking about methosomething or other and im thinking about the asbestos potholder i handled in 1960.

He died on my birthday, 2007. You forgot. ;) It didn't ruin my day one bit. Shyt happens, right?

indeed it does. i think im confusing him with that other guy on the cbn network who says all kinds of outrageous things and gets away with it cause hes daft.

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Anonymous wrote:

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Psych Lit wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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The Ford administration was the last I remember dealing with swine flue and, an outbreak. And, no vaccine then or now. I thought it was suspect to be transmitted from human to human then. Now talk of it being a combined strain with the avian type. With Mexico so much a part of our everyday, it's hard to consider it pandemic..............yet........... but, we are so overdo for number 4. This is what will more than likely do more harm to us than terrorist. You could not pay me to fly or cruise right now with this kind of chatter.  BD, you hearing any inside chat about this?Gator

Residents of California and Texas........CDC

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i heard this early this morning and things have taken a turn for the worse since. last update i heard was over 1000 in mexico city and pockets in california and texas and now they suspect 75 kids in new york may have it.  we criticized some asian countries for not getting an earlier handle on sars and im wondering why there hasnt been more of a proactive stance on this today.  i have to say i am a little suspicious of the outbreaks in areas where there are so many people and people in transit. im hoping its coincidence but it does cause me some concern. im such a germ phobe that this is actually causing me some anxiety tonight.

 

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And it should make you paranoid. These "third world" infectious diseases have infiltrated American soil through travel,

and i want to know why flights, buses and trains in and out of the cities involved have not been canceled until they get this under control. no, they wont catch everyone but exponentially speaking it has to help.

absence of medical diagnosis and treatment and largely, now the lack of any available treatment. A few years ago it was Avian and Swine flu, then came the MRSA thing which is still very prevalent though not communicable. Add to that VRE and now there is at least three major staph infections that either have no treatment at all or a mildly effective one that is a gazillion dollars per dose. caspofungin alginate? I think is one treatment at something like a thousand dollars a day for a five day go. For what? We now have two NEW Super resistant strains of staph that are twice as deadly as MRSA and VRE, they act much like computer viruses, "worms" they resist, acclimate and morph in the body to a next level. There is NO KNOWN treatment available.

dont be adding to my paranoia here. may i share that ive had two glasses of wine tonight so that i can relax about this. i havent had a glass of wine in nearly a year. i am gonna hate myself in the am. this 2 glass bad girl escapade will require an hour on the stair climber. blech.

So for the pigs? Keep the Mexicans and their pork out of this country,

i have a pork roast in the fridge i was gonna cook sunday. i wonder if its safe?

quarantine any areas where known cases are already reported and clean, clean, clean. Keep your hands out of your mouthes, cuts, any open area of the body is an entry point for this type of threat. It's certain death right now.

well death is a bit extreme. im hearing that nobody here has died in the us and that they have all responded well to anti virals. still diagnosis is important. so many people around me are coughing and sick. im hoping its just a bad cold. one of my best friends has been sick all week. i jokingly spritzed her with my germacide spray:)  in mexico city they are warning people to stay out of hospital areas. what about the people who work in hospital areas? eek. this is the first year in many that i havent had the flu vaccine. granted its not the same vaccine but the fact that its people who havent been vaccinated that are falling ill here.

Would it be horrible of me to say I'm so glad Jerry Falwell is dead? I can't imagine him blaming queer America for this too.

hes dead? when did that happen? or did i forget?

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Anonymous wrote:

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The Ford administration was the last I remember dealing with swine flue and, an outbreak. And, no vaccine then or now. I thought it was suspect to be transmitted from human to human then. Now talk of it being a combined strain with the avian type. With Mexico so much a part of our everyday, it's hard to consider it pandemic..............yet........... but, we are so overdo for number 4. This is what will more than likely do more harm to us than terrorist. You could not pay me to fly or cruise right now with this kind of chatter.  BD, you hearing any inside chat about this?Gator

Residents of California and Texas........CDC

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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There is a "morning after" pill for this sort of situation, and it's a woman's right to at least have that information at her disposal, but Bush's law didn't agree. If the doctor was "PRO LIFE" (in the federally funded hospital) then they didn't have to even let her know this option was available, and let's face it -- there are a lot of women who don't. Should they? Yeah, in an ideal world, we'd all know everything about everything, and be sterling advocates for our own health, but in the real world in which we now live, there are thousands, perhaps millions of women, young and old alike, who have never even considered the possiblity of their one day being brutally raped, and having to make informed decisions. IMO, it is the physician's obligation, at that point (or at least the attending venue) to assist her in making those decisions, by providing her with ALL the available information -- not just the "pro-choice" options. It seems ... just REASONABLE, doens't it? And yet, just yesterday, I watched (again) the video of Sarah Palin telling Katie Couric why she doesn't think a 15 year old woman who is raped should have an abortion -- how she would "counsel" her to "choose life." Under Bush's law, the OPTION of abortion might never even be presented.

I need to close this post. I'm getting ticked off, all over again.

wonderful post and a lot to think about. im especially aghast at the idea that someone could not go to a hospital and say they were raped then or could get all of her options given now. thats a very scary scenario. 

 

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BoxDog wrote:

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Really, it kinda naturally made a drift toward "abortion" when actually the typical American hospital is NOT where elective abortions are performed. And nobody questions the moral qualms of an MD that practices abortions at a "womans" clinic. That's just ridiculous, quit the job and work elsewhere. This is  more to the point of an emergent hospital situation like a car accident, stroke, embolism, etc., where a pregnant woman may, or not have any level of consent or time to figure out who that decision maker may be. There are such cases daily where the life of the baby, mother, both are in dire need of medical intervention. There's no morning after pill for such situations, nor should there necessaarily be. Someone in that hospital remains the ethical decider for science with a dubious distinction of wondering? what that womans (patients) wishes are. Time is against any patient and medical team in so many different accidental and anamolous moments. That's the key element to the issue. Not clinic docs. Those poor folks have a chance to walk away if they don't believe in what they're doing.

 

great point. so how do those things get decided then? i know there are post mortem meetings but is it a group decision or are these snap judgements by the team working on the emergency patient? id not considered this and that is a frightening situation not only where abortion is concerned but also the other end of things. who gets to decide how much to try if there are no loved ones in the waiting room?

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Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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You know? On the surface, this would seem to me (as a civil libertarian) a "no brainer" and I would agree wholeheartedly. I certainly wouldn't want to be the patient undergoing a procedure my physician was "forced" against his or her will to perform.

yeah this is very difficult for me to wrap my head around. i cant imagine being forced to perform an abortion if it violated my own beliefs and yet that in itself does limit the number of places where women can go for help. i dont know this is a hard one

I agree that no citizen should be "forced" to do something they think immoral. There are plenty of private hospitals where abortions are not performed. That won't change. Did you know, though, that an astonishing ninety percent of the counties in the United States presently have no abortion providers? None. So where does a woman go for an abortion, (or IUD!) if not to a hospital in some other county, and if that hospital is not a private hospital, but rather one federally funded, then IMO, that woman should be allowed access to every medical procedure the law says she should, regardless of the one doctor's thoughts about the procedure.

this has also happened with the morning after pill. pharmacies are not required to sell it.

the scariest one for me tho was the mel feist lawsuit on behalf of the center for men where they were trying to force women to have abortions if the males who impregnated them didnt want to have the child. in a backlash moment they argued that womens right to choose was well established while the males right to choose was not.

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 20:54, 2009-02-27

 

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