Where Everybody Knows You're Numb

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

RE: Stuff which "really" matters.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

want to be clear about how I will reply in a calm, unfrazzled way, if he does, though. It strikes me that really, this may be one of the most important contributions I can make in his life, and I want more than anything to get it as close to "right" as I can. If nonchalance is "right" then that's what I'm going to try to project. I don't want my default reaction to be the one I had in my youth, you know? By that, I mean that I don't want to revert to the initial feeling that it IS "wrong" and requires defending.
I think its important to listen carefully to his fears and his anger but tread carefully in the reaction to either. kids take a lot of cues from adults. if he senses that its a big deal to you then it will become a big deal to him.
true story here. when my kids were little my daughter and one of her friends were standing on the back deck and the friend who had watched the exorcist on tv got the dumb idea to call the devil. really. yanno? they were like 9 or 10 at the time. so they did this and my kid freaked out later that night. i mean she couldnt eat or sleep and id wake up in the middle of the night and shed be standing near my bed afraid to close her eyes for days.
at first i was really shocked by this and it played into all of my own catholic drama. i tried talking seriously to her about it and she became more anxious. after a week i took her to a therapist who also took this very seriously. so we went to the therapist a couple of times a week for weeks and she was getting worse. still barely sleeping or eating. so then i took her to the local catholic church. i told the priest the whole thing and he really took it seriously. i had thought hed sprinkle some holy water on her and tell her she was ok but instead he went on some really scary rampage with her about what she had done and how it had damaged her immortal soul. so i quickly got her out of there. the next morning i woke up and she had crawled into my bed again and was even more fearful and really catastrophizing about what she might do now that she had done this horrible thing. and so i yelled at her. not a little concerned yell. a mean ole mommy is so tired of this crap yell. i told her to cut the crap get dressed and go to school or shed have worse things to worry about than the devil and then i stomped around muttering and talking about how silly this whole thing was and how she needed to just stop it. and guess what? thats exactly what she had needed from me all along. she needed me to say firmly and without equivocation that this was a lot of hooey and to knock it off. after that she was fine. she laughs now when she remembers that time.
what i learned from that experience was that no matter how many of your own buttons get pushed that its important to give the kid what they need and not what they dont need and what they never need is for us as adults to make it worse in their heads than it already is.
This initial conversation between mother and son happened on the way home from a Superbowl party to which he'd been invited. Mom was picking him up. He was pining for his Dad (who lives across the country) and I imagine had just spent a lot of time with peers and their Dads. He was, I think, already angry about his parents being divorced, and his not having a dad around. Then, he changed the subject, and asked her how her day had gone, and she told him that she'd had dinner with the ex and casually mentioned that the ex now has a new girlfriend. He launched into a whole tirade about how he couldn't understand "those people" and asked her if she did, and his Mom said: "uhhhhhh... buddy, I'm one of 'those people, remember?"
if a similar opportunity presents itself again it might be helpful to calmly say what is it that you dont understand about lesbians?
of course the answer will prolly be laden with learned homophobia which can be gently corrected or challenged like ya would if you were dealing with the pink house crisis. well pink is an unusual choice dear but everybody has different colors that attract them and some people prefer pink. its not for everybody but believe it or not some people arent attracted to white houses either.
the dad problem is a tough one. does she have a brother or a close male friend who could do those boy bonding group things with him? if not perhaps she could do some. maybe during basketball playoffs or the world series invite the kids friends and both of their parents over for a potluck or something.

Of course a lot of his anger with his Mom right now is connected to his not having a dad around like all his pals, and even though the ex took it upon herself to tell him some "not good" things about his Dad right before the breakup, of course this "weirdness" must seem a reasonable place to lay the blame for that void in his life.
probably. he may have connected these events and therefore the ex also lied to him.
I think I'll feel more comfortable if he and I have this talk in a more casual way, and so am planning on spending extra time with the family, and allow spaces where he and I can be alone, and then let him bring it up if he wants. I want to be a safe place for him -- now, and always, which means I have to be careful I don't betray his trust and do anything which later might be perceived as "lying to him" too.
that sounds like a good plan and who knows he may have readjusted by the time you all get together.
I think he already feels "different" from his peers because of his absent father, and this has just further complicated that sense of bewilderment.
yep this was a big deal for my kids too because in the burbs it was mostly intact family units. its another thing that made them feel set apart. if its at all possible to involve the dad in his life it might be a good thing, even a visit for a few weeks in the summer if thats a safe thing to do.
. Now, both her parents and I are back in the picture, (the ex told my friend's Dad that he was what was "wrong with this country" because he was "living off" VA benefits -- he's a Viet Nam vet, and has a lot of medical problems because of the chemicals to which he was exposed there, and can't work, because his hands have pretty much been rendered useless from the chemicals, as well, so after that, she never returned to their home, and they never went to my friend's, if she was there -- my friend was, of course, put in the middle, seeing her parents only when the gf wasn't also there) so I'm hoping we can be a source of comfort for him once again.
geesh the ex sounds like a piece of work.

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 10:12, 2009-02-05

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

I'm absorbing all the words here -- mostly, just listening and absorbing right now.

Thank you, all.

Just in brief: the "meeting" for today has been postponed (by me.)
The plumber showed up yesterday (well, at 6:30PM) and may be back today. But that's not really why I postponed, nor is it the reason I begged off with the Mom (the boy didn't know anything was planned, so he's not disappointed.) I mostly wanted to sort things through in my head before this "talk" happened. Frankly, not having had kids, and really, knowing this little guy since ... well, before he was born, this "revelation" thing had never before occurred to me until day before yesterday.

I just want to be clear that my focus is on him, not me -- I pray he doesn't bring me up at all when we do have this talk this time. I'm just trying to anticipate how I might handle it if he does, is all. I don't want to hem and haw around, if that happens -- I want to be clear about how I will reply in a calm, unfrazzled way, if he does, though. It strikes me that really, this may be one of the most important contributions I can make in his life, and I want more than anything to get it as close to "right" as I can. If nonchalance is "right" then that's what I'm going to try to project. I don't want my default reaction to be the one I had in my youth, you know? By that, I mean that I don't want to revert to the initial feeling that it IS "wrong" and requires defending.

This initial conversation between mother and son happened on the way home from a Superbowl party to which he'd been invited. Mom was picking him up. He was pining for his Dad (who lives across the country) and I imagine had just spent a lot of time with peers and their Dads. He was, I think, already angry about his parents being divorced, and his not having a dad around. Then, he changed the subject, and asked her how her day had gone, and she told him that she'd had dinner with the ex and casually mentioned that the ex now has a new girlfriend. He launched into a whole tirade about how he couldn't understand "those people" and asked her if she did, and his Mom said: "uhhhhhh... buddy, I'm one of 'those people, remember?"

Not only did he not remember -- he's steadfastly held that he never knew, and that she's been lying to him this whole time.

Of course a lot of his anger with his Mom right now is connected to his not having a dad around like all his pals, and even though the ex took it upon herself to tell him some "not good" things about his Dad right before the breakup, of course this "weirdness" must seem a reasonable place to lay the blame for that void in his life.

I think I'll feel more comfortable if he and I have this talk in a more casual way, and so am planning on spending extra time with the family, and allow spaces where he and I can be alone, and then let him bring it up if he wants. I want to be a safe place for him -- now, and always, which means I have to be careful I don't betray his trust and do anything which later might be perceived as "lying to him" too.

I think he already feels "different" from his peers because of his absent father, and this has just further complicated that sense of bewilderment.

My biggest regret right now is that I really didn't see him hardly at all in the last two years, and don't have a strong sense right now of where and "who" he is. I want to get a better feel for that, I think before we have this talk. While his Mom was with the ex I chose to keep my distance. I couldn't actively support that relationship, and I wasn't going to pretend that I did. Never MET the ex, actually. Just heard about her ... too much to ever want to meet her. My door was always open to the Mom and the kids, but I wasn't going to go into their home and pretend to get chummy with a woman who .... had already caused a lot of problems for my friend. Now, both her parents and I are back in the picture, (the ex told my friend's Dad that he was what was "wrong with this country" because he was "living off" VA benefits -- he's a Viet Nam vet, and has a lot of medical problems because of the chemicals to which he was exposed there, and can't work, because his hands have pretty much been rendered useless from the chemicals, as well, so after that, she never returned to their home, and they never went to my friend's, if she was there -- my friend was, of course, put in the middle, seeing her parents only when the gf wasn't also there) so I'm hoping we can be a source of comfort for him once again.

-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 10:12, 2009-02-05

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Psych Lit wrote:
It would be helpful to normalize his experience the best that you can, to point out the positive aspects of being different
List, please.

hell have experiences that nobody else will have. because of that hell see the world in ways that others may never see. it doesnt get better than that imo.

I asked my son this when he called a few minutes ago and it gave him a chance to vent at his mama lol. he said that it was very hard for him in middle school because there were so many differences from his peers,not an intact male headed family, the queer thing especially as it had to do with my car, the lesbian stickers on it and my parking it head in, into the driveway where those stickers were visible to those driving by, the number of sibs, the two mothers issue, and the autistic sibling issue, the weird, black wearing, jello haired, pierced older siblings issues, (the rest of us nicknamed my last son "marilyn" after the munsters character, you know, the only normal one:) and to quote him even the dog was weird, (one of my dogs when he was in middle school was very old and suffered from a variety of conditions)

so i said yeah but was there anything good about it? and he said yeah, it taught me to get along with anyone, anytime and he said he has great stories of his childhood to entertain his friends with. He also said that his friends always talk about the things that they did at my home and they speak of it in a really positive way.

I said sounds like a mixed bag for you, do you wish that youd been raised in a different way with more normal parents? he said no, are you kiddng? now that hes an adult he looks back on it and thinks it was all cool but again emphasized how difficult those middle school years were.

Thing is about this. who the hell gets thru middle school unscathed? if its not the lesbian mom its the tailless cat or the overweight mom, or the skinny father, or the bald father or the bald mother or the used car, the pink house, the kmart sneakers etc. kids pull for those differences in their peers while trying to stay as invisible thru conformity as they can.

the advantages are there but they have to be mined for.

My Turn · Senior Member

yanno, i was also thinking that perhaps he is just lashing out at the whole "gay" thing cause mom and gf broke.up....maybe, after 2 years in a "live-in" situation, he was pretty attached to the gf and is feeling the loss and lashing out in anger at his mom being a lesbian, rather than dealing with losing someone with whom he possibly felt a strong bond......

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

Psych Lit wrote:
It would be helpful to normalize his experience the best that you can, to point out the positive aspects of being different

List, please.

My Turn · Senior Member

BoxDog wrote:

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

Long story short: I'm hooking up with an eleven year old boy tomorrow, because he feels "safe" talking with/to me -- has all his life.

He's freaking out because he just figured out about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian, and he just can't handle that.

She's been "out" for about four years now, and just ended a two year live in relationship with her ex (female) and called her her girlfriend, and they kissed and held hands in front of the kids, and stuff, and slept in the same bed, but somehow.... it didn't connect with him until about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian.

He thinks it's just WRONG.
Says when he looks at her, he doesn't even see the same person any more.

Says she lied to him (she NEVER did -- EVER. Not about this, anyway. She's always been spectacular in how she's handled this, IMO.)

And now ... he wants to talk to someone else about it, and I've been chosen. His Mom doesn't think he's yet figured out that I too am lesbian, although he knew my ex was "my girlfriend" (not my word, but the one he applied to her) and he saw us being affectionate, if not kissing.

My goal is to mostly listen, and give him a "safe" place to vent, if need be.

Thing is ... I don't know if this is the "right" time to affirm that I too am "That -- that WORD! That BAD WORD!"

I've been over the whole "God doesn't make any junk" thing, and "some people have brown eyes, and some people have blue eyes" but the bottom line is, this is an eleven year old little boy, who is angry, and probably scared. He feels his whole world has crumbled beneath him -- and he wants to talk to me about it, and get some reassurance, I imagine.

I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing ...

sometimes kids just dont "get" it unless it is spelled out for them....i always thought my kids knew i was a lesbian...or as they most commonly refer to it..gay. but one time my 12y/o was saying how a girl in her class told them she was "bi". my 9y/o asked what "bi" was and i told him, some girls like boys, and some girls like girls, and some girls like both boys and girls. he then says, ooooh, i get it...so your bi? i told him, no honey, mommy likes only girls.

my kids are totally cool with me being gay and so are all their friends...my kids are 8 (today!), almost 10, 12, and 17.....i think they are fine cause i am fine with it. its just not a big deal. i am not ashamed, embarrassed, nor do i hide it from anyone, anyplace, anytime. everyone on the baseball team knows, the school and teachers know....their friends know and like my gf....heck the other day she came home, and spencer says, J**** is here! and runs out the door, closely followed by 4 friends...and they go to both sides of her truck and start chattering with her...their friends have also asked me at various times, when is your gf coming?

perhaps he feels like she lied to him because she never specifically came right out and told him....imo, kids can amazingly deal with pretty much anything as long as they are told (of course, told in age appropriate terms) what the deal is.....i have been trying to tell this to a friend of mine who, again imo only, really needs to tell her 12y/o. i have told her that she will probably do more to hurt her daughter by hiding who she is and not sharing the reality of the relationship between her and gf than to try to "protect" her....one day soon, this child will find out that her mom didnt trust her enough with the truth while everyone around her, including her father, knew.....

good luck....definitely let him voice his feelings without judging and if at all possible, find other kids who have gay parents...it will help him understand better and not feel as odd, or freaky if he knows there are others in the same boat.....

-- Edited by My Turn at 08:52, 2009-02-05

MyCat8it · Senior Member

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

OK, I wrote a whole long post about this situation, and it vanished due to some "user identification" thing. I don't have the energy to recreate it once more.

Long story short: I'm hooking up with an eleven year old boy tomorrow, because he feels "safe" talking with/to me -- has all his life.

He's freaking out because he just figured out about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian, and he just can't handle that.

She's been "out" for about four years now, and just ended a two year live in relationship with her ex (female) and called her her girlfriend, and they kissed and held hands in front of the kids, and stuff, and slept in the same bed, but somehow.... it didn't connect with him until about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian.

He thinks it's just WRONG.
Says when he looks at her, he doesn't even see the same person any more.

Says she lied to him (she NEVER did -- EVER. Not about this, anyway. She's always been spectacular in how she's handled this, IMO.)

And now ... he wants to talk to someone else about it, and I've been chosen. His Mom doesn't think he's yet figured out that I too am lesbian, although he knew my ex was "my girlfriend" (not my word, but the one he applied to her) and he saw us being affectionate, if not kissing.

My goal is to mostly listen, and give him a "safe" place to vent, if need be.

Thing is ... I don't know if this is the "right" time to affirm that I too am "That -- that WORD! That BAD WORD!"

I've been over the whole "God doesn't make any junk" thing, and "some people have brown eyes, and some people have blue eyes" but the bottom line is, this is an eleven year old little boy, who is angry, and probably scared. He feels his whole world has crumbled beneath him -- and he wants to talk to me about it, and get some reassurance, I imagine.

I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing ...

help!

PS: Mom can't afford a therapist for him at this point, and the local PFLAG hasn't been of any help.

I ran into a similar situation with my daughter. She hated me for a good year or two. Turns out, she was struggling with her own sexual identity and once she came to terms with herself as a lesbian, everything else just worked itself out. But, that's her, not your young friend.

My first instinct is to keep your sexuality out of it. You might be "in on it" and taking his mother's side because you're one of them, too.

His mother hasn't changed her behavior, or kept anything a secret. It sounds like she's been very open and honest with her kids all along. His mother's actions always seemed normal to him, because they are. Now he views them as wrong. Something happened to change his perspective. What was it?

Right now, he feels alone and scared and wants nothing more than to be heard. So, hear him. Hear him once a week if it helps him through it. He'll come around. They always do. But, if you trivialize his concerns, he'll back away and go to someone else, and that someone else might not be quite as helpful.

Psych Lit · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

OK, I wrote a whole long post about this situation, and it vanished due to some "user identification" thing. I don't have the energy to recreate it once more.

Long story short: I'm hooking up with an eleven year old boy tomorrow, because he feels "safe" talking with/to me -- has all his life.

He's freaking out because he just figured out about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian, and he just can't handle that.
id probe to see how he came to that realization. did he just put all the pieces together or did he become educated in the school yard or did one of his friends put the pieces together for him in a pejorative way.
having a lesbian mom is very difficult for boys between 11-15.
At that age their peers begin to discuss sex and when lesbianism is discussed its usually not something that a boy wants to visualize his mother doing. neither is heterosexual sex but at least his friends parents are doing that too. It sets apart and sexualizes mom at a time when a child is discovering his or her own sexuality.

I wouldnt catastrophize his experience but stay matter of fact with him. Dont allow it to become an even bigger issue. Ask him what hes heard and who hes heard it from. Ask him what he thinks about what hes heard. Dont volunteer a lot of sexual information because at 11 he may not be ready for a discussion of mom doing any of those things and keep his 11 year old maturity in mind when answering any sexual questions that he does ask outright. Unless he asks, I wouldnt volunteer your own sexual orientation. He might then perceive that everybody has been lying to him all along and cut you off too but if he does ask be honest with him and talk about your relationship with his mother if he does figure out that youre a lesbian. He may think that you and she are or were an item.

It also sounds like he feels like hes been duped which leads me to suspect that someone else has brought this to his attention and perhaps he denied it and then found out that its true and if so that may be the source of his anger. There is also the shame aspect of being different. This is also the age where boys start firming their identities. Conformity and trust in their surroundings and families are important things for preteens as they maneuver thru the next half dozen years. If he feels that his feet are firmly planted he can have a place to launch from and having a parent who is different can rock that place of stability for awhile. If everything hes known up to now is wrong, hes going to have to find a sense of equilibrium again so that he can regain that sense of trust to move from. Does he have a relationship with his father? Does his dad have any unresolved issues with moms sexuality? Does he hold a belief that having a gay parent reflects on his own sexuality? he may think that this means he will be gay and there are few things that an 11 year old boy can think of that would be harder to deal with. i mean whats the ultimate put down in the 6th grade? youre gay.

Try to understand the place hes standing in right now, walk in his 11 year old shoes and see what the pitfalls are in having a parent who is different. if you can see the world as he sees it, allowing him his feelings, youll know what to say.

kinda like discovering there is no santa. it leaves a wound but its a recoverable one most of the time.

It would be helpful to normalize his experience the best that you can, to point out the positive aspects of being different and to point out that hes not the only kid with a gay parent. the stats are something like 8-14 million kids in the US have a gay or lesbian parent. Tell him he can call you any time he has a question.

Tell your friend that if she stays calm by the time he gets to be 16 it all changes and shell be the cool mom and once again the offspring will embrace her and she will be the one his friends will come to as they try to sort out their own sexuality.

tell he to look in the area for a gay and lesbian parent support network or organization. Most big cities have one of these and its geared towards these very types of issues and often there are chances to meet other kids in similar situations.

good luck!

.

BoxDog · Guru

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

OK, I wrote a whole long post about this situation, and it vanished due to some "user identification" thing. I don't have the energy to recreate it once more.

Long story short: I'm hooking up with an eleven year old boy tomorrow, because he feels "safe" talking with/to me -- has all his life.

He's freaking out because he just figured out about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian, and he just can't handle that.

She's been "out" for about four years now, and just ended a two year live in relationship with her ex (female) and called her her girlfriend, and they kissed and held hands in front of the kids, and stuff, and slept in the same bed, but somehow.... it didn't connect with him until about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian.

He thinks it's just WRONG.
Says when he looks at her, he doesn't even see the same person any more.

Says she lied to him (she NEVER did -- EVER. Not about this, anyway. She's always been spectacular in how she's handled this, IMO.)

And now ... he wants to talk to someone else about it, and I've been chosen. His Mom doesn't think he's yet figured out that I too am lesbian, although he knew my ex was "my girlfriend" (not my word, but the one he applied to her) and he saw us being affectionate, if not kissing.

My goal is to mostly listen, and give him a "safe" place to vent, if need be.

Thing is ... I don't know if this is the "right" time to affirm that I too am "That -- that WORD! That BAD WORD!"

I've been over the whole "God doesn't make any junk" thing, and "some people have brown eyes, and some people have blue eyes" but the bottom line is, this is an eleven year old little boy, who is angry, and probably scared. He feels his whole world has crumbled beneath him -- and he wants to talk to me about it, and get some reassurance, I imagine.

I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing ...

help!

PS: Mom can't afford a therapist for him at this point, and the local PFLAG hasn't been of any help.

http://www.outnotes.com/

It's a shame that pflag can't step up and help him with sorting through the stuff he thought he knew and what really is. To the point he realizes it was really just the same. She's no different as his mother as she is as a, whatever she does for a living or whatever she likes to eat, or play, or doodle. These out notes might be something he may be just old enough, open enough and wise enough to help him work through the initial "doscomfort"? or perceived deception, and shock on his own. You can get him with your own out note when his mothers "status" is fully absorbed by him, or not. :) Just don't suggest a guidance counselor, coach or clergy lend him an ear. Please.

Nightowlhoot3 · Guru

OK, I wrote a whole long post about this situation, and it vanished due to some "user identification" thing. I don't have the energy to recreate it once more.

Long story short: I'm hooking up with an eleven year old boy tomorrow, because he feels "safe" talking with/to me -- has all his life.

He's freaking out because he just figured out about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian, and he just can't handle that.

She's been "out" for about four years now, and just ended a two year live in relationship with her ex (female) and called her her girlfriend, and they kissed and held hands in front of the kids, and stuff, and slept in the same bed, but somehow.... it didn't connect with him until about three days ago that his Mom is lesbian.

He thinks it's just WRONG.
Says when he looks at her, he doesn't even see the same person any more.

Says she lied to him (she NEVER did -- EVER. Not about this, anyway. She's always been spectacular in how she's handled this, IMO.)

And now ... he wants to talk to someone else about it, and I've been chosen. His Mom doesn't think he's yet figured out that I too am lesbian, although he knew my ex was "my girlfriend" (not my word, but the one he applied to her) and he saw us being affectionate, if not kissing.

My goal is to mostly listen, and give him a "safe" place to vent, if need be.

Thing is ... I don't know if this is the "right" time to affirm that I too am "That -- that WORD! That BAD WORD!"

I've been over the whole "God doesn't make any junk" thing, and "some people have brown eyes, and some people have blue eyes" but the bottom line is, this is an eleven year old little boy, who is angry, and probably scared. He feels his whole world has crumbled beneath him -- and he wants to talk to me about it, and get some reassurance, I imagine.

I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing ...

cry

help!

PS: Mom can't afford a therapist for him at this point, and the local PFLAG hasn't been of any help.