BoxDog wrote:

---

god almighty, I feel like I'm right back in AOL hell. Words, just a blob of words. If ever we were to strike up a discussion again I would greatly appreciate if you tried not to admonish me if you feel I have strayed from your perception of "topic". If you don't see how it's all pieces of a big puzzle that do tie together, I'm not about to make any effort to convince you differently. Have a nice day.




-- Edited by BoxDog at 16:53, 2008-11-24

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wow. thats all ya got??? disappointing....

My Turn wrote:

---

BoxDog wrote:

---

My Turn wrote:

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i dont see the correlation between how impeachments are dropped or pardoned, relates to the fight for equality for all.  apathy in the general public and among the glbt community for equality and marriage rights does not equate to not prosecuting public officials for criminal acts simply because they hold public office.

-- Edited by My Turn at 10:25, 2008-11-23

---

 

The CEO's of the three major American auto manufacturers didn't see a correlation between jane q publics contempt for them individually as they disembarked their private jets for the recent Senate hearings either. The hearings begging to "save" the industry with the 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout they are demanding. When asked, not one of the three was willing to give up their private jet. Frankly? I am all for their private jets and golden parachutes or golden showers, whatever. We're a capitalist nation. I see a lack of common perception of what is or is not, important or relative.

It turns out their blank stares, when questioned on their individual responsibility in the downward spiral, were more compelling to regular old Americans than the tales they verbally told. Moreso than ever, I think, everything is directly or indirectly relative, related, or both to everything else.  And that is why I easily make the correlations I've made. 

Didn't mean to get your font in a wad, but my post clearly uses the words "apparent apathy". Typing on eggshells is not something I'm accustomed to. Nor, do I wish to begin now. 

Auto CEOs Fly in Corporate Jets

The execs flew from Detroit to Washington in separate private jets; the cost of GM's is $36 million

Posted November 21, 2008

• $25 billion: Amount of taxpayer money the CEOs of the big three automakers are asking Congress for
• 3: Number of corporate jets that the CEOs flew in to travel to Washington to make their case to Congress
• $36 million: Cost of GM's luxury jet
• $20,000: Estimated cost of GM CEO Rick Wagoner's roundtrip trip to Washington
• $288: Cost of a coach seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington
• $837: Cost of a first-class seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington

Source: ABC News

So, the man that drove a major oil company into the ground then went on to trade a major league home run king, Sammy Sosa from the Texas Rangers to the Chicago Cubs, went on to be a two time president of this country. Yes, to me it's all relative.

---

you know...all of this is seriously off topic from what this thread and my reply was originally about. originally it was about the attempt to bring charges on cheny in texas.  cats reply that in 57 days she didn't see an impeachment happening, and my agreement.  i further stated that even if an impeachment were to proceed it would not, imo, result in a conviction.  then a comparison was made about apathy for glbt rights, ken ley's karma and then we spun off into corporate excesses....and how corporate excesses are related back to the president....

sure...everything in some way can be connected back to everything else sooner or later....that whole six degrees of separation thing.  yet it makes no sense to me how one thinks that public outcry or action will result in affecting an impeachment.  glbt rights and equality most definitely can be affected by public action. outrage and outcry from the public over corporate excess might exact some change...boycotting companies many times does work.

however, i still stand by my assertion that impeachment will never work. i will never see a president or other high ranking government official make it thru an impeachment thru conviction and sentencing.  the process is not set up to actually work. perhaps when it was created it would have been or seemed workable, however with the way politics works today it will never happen.  if you simply look at the process, it doesn't make sense.  charges are made and investigated by the house judiciary committee.  who comprises the house judiciary committee?  members of congress.  if it makes it past that, the paperwork is put before the house for a vote. if the vote is approved to "impeach" then the person is impeached at step one. then the "trial" or hearing before the senate, IF it makes it that far and the charges are not dropped which happens in most of the cases.  who makes up the senate?  100 senators, mostly repubs and dems, with a few indies, who network and deal make with each other to get anything done. ok.  so now to complete part two, a conviction, requires a 2/3 vote in the senate.  not an impartial  jury of the accused's peers....i do not see how it will ever, ever happen that 2/3 of the senate will vote to convict a president for a crime.  the two major political parties and the people who need them to get elected will never come together united enough to impeach a president...no matter how much the public wants it or feel it is the right thing to do.

protests and activism can accomplish many things....look at the civil rights movement activities of the 60's...look at the women's right to vote protests and actions....look at the vietnam war protests...there are many things that can bring about change when people unite and work for what they believe.  impeachment is not one of these.

there is apathy about glbt rights and marriage equality...there is apathy about corporate excess...and these things CAN be changed with public activism....however, the process of impeachment and the acknowledgment that a president will never, imo, be completely impeached, is not apathy. it is, imo, reality.

-- Edited by My Turn at 15:20, 2008-11-24

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god almighty, I feel like I'm right back in AOL hell. Words, just a blob of words. If ever we were to strike up a discussion again I would greatly appreciate if you tried not to admonish me if you feel I have strayed from your perception of "topic". If you don't see how it's all pieces of a big puzzle that do tie together, I'm not about to make any effort to convince you differently. Have a nice day.




-- Edited by BoxDog at 16:53, 2008-11-24

My Turn wrote:

---

however, i still stand by my assertion that impeachment will never work. i will never see a president or other high ranking government official make it thru an impeachment thru conviction and sentencing. 
the process is not set up to actually work. perhaps when it was created it would have been or seemed workable, however with the way politics works today it will never happen.  <MT



Impeached and convicted by Senate in last 20 years or so:


Harry E. Claiborne, judge of the U.S. District Court for the district of Nevada; removed from office Oct. 9, 1986.

Alcee L. Hastings, judge of the U.S. District Court for the southern district of Florida; removed from office Oct. 20, 1988.

Walter L. Nixon, judge of the U.S. District Court for Mississippi; removed from office Nov. 3, 1989.


-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 16:37, 2008-11-24

BoxDog wrote:

---

My Turn wrote:

---

i dont see the correlation between how impeachments are dropped or pardoned, relates to the fight for equality for all.  apathy in the general public and among the glbt community for equality and marriage rights does not equate to not prosecuting public officials for criminal acts simply because they hold public office.

-- Edited by My Turn at 10:25, 2008-11-23

---

 

The CEO's of the three major American auto manufacturers didn't see a correlation between jane q publics contempt for them individually as they disembarked their private jets for the recent Senate hearings either. The hearings begging to "save" the industry with the 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout they are demanding. When asked, not one of the three was willing to give up their private jet. Frankly? I am all for their private jets and golden parachutes or golden showers, whatever. We're a capitalist nation. I see a lack of common perception of what is or is not, important or relative.

It turns out their blank stares, when questioned on their individual responsibility in the downward spiral, were more compelling to regular old Americans than the tales they verbally told. Moreso than ever, I think, everything is directly or indirectly relative, related, or both to everything else.  And that is why I easily make the correlations I've made. 

Didn't mean to get your font in a wad, but my post clearly uses the words "apparent apathy". Typing on eggshells is not something I'm accustomed to. Nor, do I wish to begin now. 

Auto CEOs Fly in Corporate Jets

The execs flew from Detroit to Washington in separate private jets; the cost of GM's is $36 million

Posted November 21, 2008

• $25 billion: Amount of taxpayer money the CEOs of the big three automakers are asking Congress for
• 3: Number of corporate jets that the CEOs flew in to travel to Washington to make their case to Congress
• $36 million: Cost of GM's luxury jet
• $20,000: Estimated cost of GM CEO Rick Wagoner's roundtrip trip to Washington
• $288: Cost of a coach seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington
• $837: Cost of a first-class seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington

Source: ABC News

So, the man that drove a major oil company into the ground then went on to trade a major league home run king, Sammy Sosa from the Texas Rangers to the Chicago Cubs, went on to be a two time president of this country. Yes, to me it's all relative.

---

-- Edited by My Turn at 15:20, 2008-11-24

BoxDog wrote:

---

Didn't mean to get your font in a wad, but my post clearly uses the words "apparent apathy". Typing on eggshells is not something I'm accustomed to. Nor, do I wish to begin now. 

---

lol....you so did not get my "font" in a wad, or anything else for that matter...hence why i put "lol..that's funny."  if you are referring to the fact that the post came up larger than normal for me, well, i had written part of my response on an email cause i had to save since i didnt have a lot of time when i first began my response...then when i copied and pasted it came up as two different fonts, and when i tried to fix it...it wasnt working too well,.....i edited it three times (yes, with each edit i did erase the previous edit lines in the post) and that was the best it got, at least it finally let me add breaks between my paragraphs...

never type on eggshells with me...i did the eggshell thing before too and i dont like it either...i am of the thought that if someone gets their feelings hurt over what someone writes or another persons opinion on a board, well, they shoulda checked their feelings with the hat check girl prior to stepping up to the keyboard....altho, i do admit to wording my posts so i do not come across as offensive as much as possible...

really, BD, i do love how you tell it like it is according to you...., and yet you still listen to what others write...and usually have something to say back... keeps things interesting.....and your one liners are always great...(i think i did say that before too...but its true!)

i am too tired to read all the replies and do a response...maybe later.....

BoxDog wrote:

---

 

The CEO's of the three major American auto manufacturers didn't see a correlation between jane q publics contempt for them individually as they disembarked their private jets for the recent Senate hearings either. The hearings begging to "save" the industry with the 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout they are demanding. When asked, not one of the three was willing to give up their private jet. Frankly? I am all for their private jets and golden parachutes or golden showers, whatever. We're a capitalist nation. I see a lack of common perception of what is or is not, important or relative.

i heard on the radio yesterday that two of the three execs have now sold their private jets. i wonder who the holdout was? the idea that 3 men, all coming from detroit for the same bloody hearing, would each ride in their own private jet, while discussing why it is that they, with the exception of ford, didnt see the writing on the wall and remained tooled to make big gas guzzlers. i remember bush saying something shortly after he was elected the first time, in response to not signing one of the environmental treaties, that he wouldnt sign it because other countries hadnt signed it and he was all about preserving the american story of riding down the highway in a big cool car. and people wonder why the rest of the world hates us.

all of which leads to the big shudder. dont these people ever think a couple of steps ahead? corporate leaders saying that they couldnt forcast the upcoming demand for energy as china and india developed is about as ridiculous as bush saying he couldnt see 911 coming. its their job to know. dont these people ever, like, surf the net or listen to the news, ot talk to one another? its not like this stuff comes out of nowhere. they had years to prepare. sigh. to his credit obama is going to have a technology czar. thats good. at least someone will be checking out the real world:) it really scares me that the average citizen probably knows more about what the upcoming challenges and dangers are than does the government that is supposed to be protecting us.

BoxDog wrote:

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My Turn wrote:

---

i dont see the correlation between how impeachments are dropped or pardoned or the one case that i mentioned of the federal judge that was impeached, sentenced and then continued on to be elected to serve in the house of representatives, relates to the fight for equality for all.  apathy in the general public and among the glbt community for equality and marriage rights does not equate to not prosecuting public officials for criminal acts simply because they hold public office.

-- Edited by My Turn at 10:25, 2008-11-23

---

 

The CEO's of the three major American auto manufacturers didn't see a correlation between jane q publics contempt for them individually as they disembarked their private jets for the recent Senate hearings either. The hearings begging to "save" the industry with the 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout they are demanding. When asked, not one of the three was willing to give up their private jet. Frankly? I am all for their private jets and golden parachutes or golden showers, whatever. We're a capitalist nation. I see a lack of common perception of what is or is not, important or relative.

It turns out their blank stares, when questioned on their individual responsibility in the downward spiral, were more compelling to regular old Americans than the tales they verbally told. Moreso than ever, I think, everything is directly or indirectly relative, related, or both to everything else.  And that is why I easily make the correlations I've made. 

Didn't mean to get your font in a wad, but my post clearly uses the words "apparent apathy". Typing on eggshells is not something I'm accustomed to. Nor, do I wish to begin now. 

Auto CEOs Fly in Corporate Jets

The execs flew from Detroit to Washington in separate private jets; the cost of GM's is $36 million

Posted November 21, 2008

• $25 billion: Amount of taxpayer money the CEOs of the big three automakers are asking Congress for
• 3: Number of corporate jets that the CEOs flew in to travel to Washington to make their case to Congress
• $36 million: Cost of GM's luxury jet
• $20,000: Estimated cost of GM CEO Rick Wagoner's roundtrip trip to Washington
• $288: Cost of a coach seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington
• $837: Cost of a first-class seat on a Northwest Airlines flight to Washington

---

Congress saying: "Try again, Bucko" ... "priceless".

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

---

(please forgive my drifting ... there's a plumber in the house, and it's hard to concentrate, or get any continuity before he calls me for something.)


-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 14:01, 2008-11-23

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Psych Lit wrote:

uh..bald and 40ish? his name isnt joe is it?

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"Got Shirt?"

Psych Lit wrote:

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Now, look at all GWB has done.

How is it even possible he has not been impeached??

But we can let it and him "slide" and have so done. Loosey Goosey with the laws of the land. The absolutes of justice are not so absolute after all. And besides, none of us are being held in Gitmo, so eh? "Not my problem." No biggie. I mean, yeah, it's a shame and all, but nothing to get our feathers ruffled over, and spend a lot of money on a trial, or anything...

and whats in it for pelosi and reid to have not supported this?

---

Pelosi and Reid ... two of my three favorite democrats du jour

NOT!

Who knows what those Nazi's are up to, or why.
(Is there a spitting emoticon?)

<making do>

 PTEWY!


(too subtle?)

---

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

---

 

My Turn wrote:

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i

If we don't demand the standards of law as suggested by the constitution be sustained, then they will be usurped by the standards of the prevailing religion in this country. If we don't say: "Stop -- no, you may not do that" to our officials when they nonchalantly insinuate powers not theirs, and then utilize those powers to create mischief, then the snowball has begun to grow. GWB's entire presidency was one of assumption, from the day he strode into the White House before being legally entitled to that walk. Dick Cheney, by mere "assumption" has completely altered, in eight years, the office of the Vice President, and was able to do so mainly because no one said "No, you may NOT do that." No wonder Sarah Palin thought it was a "powerful" position.

and one of the confusions for me is why more of this hasnt happened during this administration. aside from dennis kucinich reading the articles of impeachment into the congressional record the decision to impeach bush and cheney were schlepped off to justice where everyone knew no action would be taken. when we contrast that with what happened to clinton with both the whitewater and the lil blue dress incidents to name just two things, the amount of tax payer money spent on investigations, the gridlock on any legislative actions that occured as a result of those investigations etc. the lack of action on the part of a democratically controlled congress to rein in bush and cheney leaves me stumped.
ive heard the spin that bush may give a blanket pardon to everyone in his administration for all crimes committed during his tenure. and that if he did so, who or what would prevent him from doing so?

IMO, impeachment of elected officials, when warranted, is vital to the present and future of this country, as well as to the recording of history. Along with everything else, it affirms the principle that no one is above the law. No one. I cannot think of a more vital element of our flavor of democracy, more worthy of affirmation.

yes, makes me think of countries in the developing world where well intentioned people run for office on a reformers platform who once  they are in office mysteriously succumb to coruption and the country ends up in some sort of civil conflict ending in horriffic actions all the way up to genocide. all of which might have been avoided if there was a way to remove the corrupt leader before that happened. as an observer of this we can wonder how it got to that point but i honestly believe that if we had to endure another 4 years of bush et al here wed see some sort of civil war begin to rear up in america.

 at least nixon didnt pardon himself. hopefully bush will not either.

The list of offenses committed by GWB is long and frightening. I don't even know what the current status of the Geneva Convention is at this point. Further, his henchmen, like Gonzales and Ashcroft have, again, IMO, damaged us, our democracy, in ways it will take generations to repair. That process begins with impeachment. It is a tool I think should be used with prudence, but we should not shy away from using it when the situation demands we so do.


Now, look at all GWB has done.

How is it even possible he has not been impeached??

But we can let it and him "slide" and have so done. Loosey Goosey with the laws of the land. The absolutes of justice are not so absolute after all. And besides, none of us are being held in Gitmo, so eh? "Not my problem." No biggie. I mean, yeah, it's a shame and all, but nothing to get our feathers ruffled over, and spend a lot of money on a trial, or anything...

and whats in it for pelosi and reid to have not supported this?

---

 

My Turn wrote:

---

i dont see the correlation between how impeachments are dropped or pardoned or the one case that i mentioned of the federal judge that was impeached, sentenced and then continued on to be elected to serve in the house of representatives, relates to the fight for equality for all.  apathy in the general public and among the glbt community for equality and marriage rights does not equate to not prosecuting public officials for criminal acts simply because they hold public office.

-- Edited by My Turn at 10:25, 2008-11-23

---

Don't equality and justice go hand in hand?

And aren't they both about what is "right"?
I've spent a lifetime tilting at windmills, and once in a blue moon, successfully. 

If we don't demand the standards of law as suggested by the constitution be sustained, then they will be usurped by the standards of the prevailing religion in this country. If we don't say: "Stop -- no, you may not do that" to our officials when they nonchalantly insinuate powers not theirs, and then utilize those powers to create mischief, then the snowball has begun to grow. GWB's entire presidency was one of assumption, from the day he strode into the White House before being legally entitled to that walk. Dick Cheney, by mere "assumption" has completely altered, in four years, the office of the Vice President, and did so mainly because no one said "No, you may NOT do that." No wonder Sarah Palin thought it was a "powerful" position. 

IMO, impeachments of elected officials, when warranted, are vital to the present and future of this country, as well as to the writing of history. Along with everything else, they affirm the principle that no one is above the law. No one. I cannot think of a more vital element of our flavor of democracy, more worthy of affirmation. An executive branch unchecked, distorts the delicate balance of our government in ways which, while they may seem insignificant at the time, could threaten the very foundation of our nation. IMO, that's no exaggeration. It's that important. I cannot imagine what other atrocities RM Nixon might have committed had he not been stopped, and essentially forced to resign. When the president of the United States subverts the constitution for his or her selfish design, it is the duty of the congress (our proxies) to act swiftly, and with purpose.

The list of offenses committed by GWB is long and frightening. I don't even know what the current status of the Geneva Convention is at this point. Further, his henchmen, like Gonzales and Ashcroft have, again, IMO, damaged us, our democracy, in ways it will take generations to repair. That reparative process begins (in this case) with impeachment. It's a tool I think must be used with prudence, but we should not shy away from using it when the situation demands we so do.

Bill Clinton's legacy will forever be marred by his impeachment for lying to the Grand Jury about his personal life. The standard held there. I personally thought the whole investigation an embarrassment to our country and the process thanks to the vindictive Ken Starr cadre, and that the investigation was was more politically focused than an instrument of justice, but the bottom line is, BC was not truthful under oath, and so was impeached.

Now, look at all GWB has done.

How is it even possible he has not been impeached??

But we can let it and him "slide" and have so done. Loosey Goosey with the laws of the land. The absolutes of justice are not so absolute after all. And besides, none of us are being held in Gitmo, so eh? "Not my problem." No biggie. I mean, yeah, it's a shame and all, but nothing to get our feathers ruffled over, and spend a lot of money on a trial, or anything...

And there are heterosexual people in this country saying exactly the same thing about our constitutionally guaranteed right to marry being denied us by these same "divinely inspired" zealots who elevated GWB to the most powerful position in the country, and, until he assumed that office, the most powerful position on the globe. Those days are behind us now, thanks to him. I once counted the number of times GWB used the word "evil" in his State of the Unioin address right after 9/11 when he was laying the groundwork for attacking Iraq. I've forgotten the number now, but I think it was 30 something. Classic religious rhetoric, intended to lasso and energize "his" supporters and bring them 'round to his "cause." And it worked with them, and precious few of us said "Hell NO!" and so now we are still knee deep in that "optional" war, surrounded by Islamphobics spouting racist garbage at will, while Osama bin Laden is hanging around Taco Bell on Tuesdays for the two-fer special of the day.

The irony for me, here, is that those who have dubbed their campaign of petty bullying of the minority "protection of marriage" all know, actually that their marriage is not at issue in any way, shape or form, when it comes to yours and mine.

The bottom line is we as a citizenry have largely grown more apathetic over the last 30 years or so, and it's past time to alter that route which leads to places we don't really want to go, but may soon find ourselves unless we demand more from our government, and are better stewards of our democracy. I'm hopeful that we are on the brink of such a reversal, and that it will be and endeavor supported by the new administration. Of course the present economic crisis is going to interfere with some of that movement at the outset, but I am encouraged by the sterling cabinet President elect Obama is gathering, and am ready, frankly, to exhale for just a second before beginning anew, without an administration determined to subvert justice at every possible turn.

IMO, GWB was at least in the top three "worst" presidents this nation has ever known, and I'm not clear what number he would be in that trio. That he's skating away with nothing more than a low approval record (the lowest in history? If not the lowest, certainly close) is ... a disappointment at the least.process begins with impeachment. It is a tool I think should be used with prudence, but we should not shy away from using it when the situation demands we so do.

Bill Clinton's legacy will forever be marred by his impeachment for lying to the Grand Jury about his personal life. The standard held there. I personally thought the whole investigation an embarrassment to the Ken Starr cadre, and that the investigation was was more focused on political vengence than actual  justice, but the bottom line is, BC was not truthful, and so was impeached.

Now, look at all GWB has done.

How is it even possible he has not been impeached??

But we can let it and him "slide" and have so done. Loosey Goosey with the laws of the land. The absolutes of justice are not so absolute after all. And besides, none of us are being held in Gitmo, so eh? "Not my problem." No biggie. I mean, yeah, it's a shame and all, but nothing to get our feathers ruffled over, and spend a lot of money on a trial, or anything...

And there are heterosexual people in this country saying exactly the same thing about our constitutionally guaranteed right to marry being denied us by these same "divinely inspired" zealots from which the likes of GWB rose. I once counted the number of times GWB used the word "evil" in his State of the Unioin address right after 9/11 when he was laying the groundwork for attacking Iraq. I've forgotten the number now, but I think it was 30 something. Classic religious rhetoric, intended to lasso and energize "his" supporters and bring them 'round to his "cause."

The irony for me, here, is that those who have dubbed their campaign of petty bullying of the minority "protection of marriage" all know, actually, that their marriage is not at issue in any way, shape or form, when it comes to yours and mine.

The bottom line is we as a citizenry have largely grown more apathetic over the last 30 years or so, and it's past time to alter that route which leads to places we don't really want to go, but may soon find ourselves unless we demand more from our government, and are better stewards of our democracy. I'm hopeful that we are on the brink of such a reversal, and that it will be an endeavor supported and encouraged by the new administration. Of course the present economic crisis is going to interfere with some of that movement at the outset, but I am encouraged by the sterling cabinet President elect Obama is gathering, and am ready, frankly, to exhale for just a second before beginning anew, without an administration determined to subvert justice at every possible turn.

IMO, GWB was at least in the top three "worst" presidents this nation has ever known, and I'm not clear what number he would be in that trio. That he's skating away with nothing more than a low approval record (the lowest in history? If not the lowest, certainly close) is ... a disappointment at the least.

(please forgive my drifting ... there's a plumber in the house, and it's hard to concentrate, or get any continuity before he calls me for something.)



-- Edited by Nightowlhoot3 at 14:24, 2008-11-23

My Turn wrote:

---

MyCat8it wrote:

---

I'm sorry to say that the next 57 days will pass without an impeachment of this awful administration.

On the bright side.  There are only 57 days left! 

---

a half full, half empty kinda thing, eh? 

really tho, even if there were an impeachment, history shows that nothing comes of it in the case of the legislative and executive branches.  two presidents, a senator, and cabinet member were all impeached...but every single one of them was later aquitted or had the charges dropped....one federal judge who was impeached and convicted, received leniency in sentencing and was later elected to the house of representatives.....soooooo, my question...what's the point?  in the end the only result is a waste of taxpayer money (no surprise there...) hours of news coverage....and for what? nothing.  the cycle/circle just continues......

---

Assuming this is mostly rhetorical I do think it important to make note that this type of apparent apathy is exactly the type of view that would continue to plague and defeat equality in this country. There are, literally, millions of Americans that do not feel "gay marriage" affects them, or those of us that are very involved and affected by these legislative, electoral and judicial decisions. There are millions of people that feel "we" should just be happy to have our civil unions, in those states which currently still have them. In effect, that's really the same thing that you seem to suggest by saying "what's the point?". The point, to me, is we continue to do what is right, ethical and warranted. If we don't we have nobody to blame and should never forget that.

And fwiw every so often we do have a chance to actually witness karmas ass-bite, just ask the Ken Ley family.  So, in my mind, these types of charges and trials or whatever they bring it isn't at all a "half full" issue, it's a necessary evil.

-- Edited by BoxDog at 08:23, 2008-11-23

Psych Lit wrote:

---

Nightowlhoot3 wrote:

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"Off with their heads!" say I ...

Cheney, Gonzales Indicted in Texas

OK, sorry, but I'm diggin' this.
If nothing else, it's a good start.

---

yes, it is. i can only hope it really goes somewhere tho the cynic in me says no.

---

I'm sorry to say that the next 57 days will pass without an impeachment of this awful administration.

On the bright side.  There are only 57 days left!